Mandatory abortions in case of rape

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Mature like crying for the millions of dead children? The world doesn't miss those fetuses other than to posture about pushing their beliefs on others which goes back to my point before about wanting control over others.

More like mature like not resorting to making baseless insinuations like that. Oh, and about your little religious rant that came outta nowhere; I am atheist so none of that s**t is relevant to me.

Just shows you don't have to be religious to be suckered into their trappings.

Actually you can only speculate that it does think, and that it is aware, and I question the objectivity of said speculation.

That's right, I'm suckered into something I don't even believe in. Or is it more I broke your little preconceived notion that one has to be religious to be pro-life? Since your straw man backfired, you are now pretending that I'm a crow. Think about how extremely stupid your post was the next time you wanna call everyone on the opposition stupid. That's as logical as saying I don't have to be suicidal to kill myself cuz I hate my life.

LKL: The talk about brain waves has been going on for the longest time, so I would like to see what type of brain waves are active and to what extent.

Ace:
basic electrical activity starts to spark, as Inuyasha has mentioned, as early as 40 days. Organized, recognizable brain waves take much longer; premies show some brain waves, but it is normal for premies, even those that survive and are neurologically normal at one year of age, to have stretches of flatlined EEGs (longer and more frequent the more premature the infant is, and decreasing as the infant gets older). In any other case, a flatlined EEG is synonymous with brain death.

I have some links saved at home to back this up, but I'm at work right now. Let me know if you want me to pull those up when I get home.

LKL gave a pretty detailed review of that some time ago, which was promptly ignored.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013199

Anyone care to comment on the planned interaction at 14 weeks between twins, suggested in this research?

It does not appear to be a reflex. I'm not sure how it could happen without the fetus' ability to differentiate itself from its environment. This is the first evidence of planned behavior for a fetus at this landmark of development that I have seen.

Maybe it is indicative of potential not measured in a fetus when a twin is not in the environment to provide this social stimulus?

well 14 weeks is still a long time to decide and even then there is no evidence that this is complex thought, it could just be a very active growth stage of the mirror neurons(completely from my imagination i know)
vefore all that you would also have to account for complex thought and consciousness as scientific subjects, currently we havent come very far to my understanding.

**edit** sorry if i come across as hostile, i dont intend to, these matters are very hard to quantisize because of the huge amount of variables involved and the inherent emotional attachment to these variables

Just cause the brainwaves aren't organized doesn't mean they aren't a person. You can't expect people to be born already having a college degree.

i dont think its that kind of disorganized,
brain waves can be seen in thousands of species yet only some show true intelligence, (sentience, self awareness,)
for there to be any "complex humanlike" thougths there needs to be something more than brainwaves, a pattern or order if you will.
you see it through evolution all the time, both macro and micro, simple patterns evolving into complex patterns, the stripes on a zebra comes to mind.

You do realize that the child is generating about 250,000 new brain cells a minute during peak times.

Once specialized brain cells, called neurons, begin to develop 18 days into pregnancy, the brain goes into overdrive, producing neurons at an unbelievable rate. Some estimates place the rate of neuron development as high as 250,000 brain cells per minute during peak times! One of the most interesting and unintuitive facts about brain development is that before birth, your baby’s brain manufactures many more neurons than she or he will ultimately need. As many as 70% of them will ultimately be “pruned” and will die off. Why do babies’ brains produce so many more cells than they need? To ensure that all brain regions that need them have as many cells, and connections among cells, as they need to coordinate behavior. Throughout the second and third trimesters, cells begin to migrate in the brain, moving to their final positions in a particular structure of the brain, such as the visual system, the region that controls movement, or the system that controls emotions.
http://www.expectantmothersguide.com/li ... opment.htm

Once you start seeing brain activity you're seeing a rampant growth of the child's brain the functioning ability is improving at an incredible rate.

I don't think planned interaction would have to involve complex thought. And there is no reason to believe that it requires sight or hearing. No one has a clear idea how consciousness or self works in an adult, so it is well beyond our ability to understand the sensory experience that would allow a fetus to differentiate itself from its environment.

However the behavior can be measured in much the same way it is when a person is in a vegetative state, as to whether or not it is just a reflex or a planned behavior. The research in the article gives us a better understanding of the human potential of a fetus in relationship to how a fetus interacts with its environment when another fetus is present.

As far as I know this kind of thing hasn't been studied in the animal kingdom. But to me it makes sense that a similiar process might occur. I never thought about how twins might interact with each other, but if there wasn't some kind of limits on interaction we might see more physical harm inflicted inside the womb between twins.

And no, you don't sound hostile at all, with all the talk about a heart rate and electrical activity in the brain; interaction between fetuses seems to be more significant because it involves behavior rather than just vital signs.

There is alot of emotion involved with the topic of abortion, but the evidence provided in this article could make a difference in a woman making a choice before fourteen weeks into a pregnancy. I'm wondering if the evidenced behavior is meaningful to the pro-choice point of view in this discussion group, as to how far in a pregnancy a choice to have an abortion should be made.

@ aghogday

The pro-abortion people are not likely to concern themselves with facts, because the instant they admit the child in the womb is a person their entire moral basis for why abortion is okay and even desirable falls apart.

They quite frankly want to say that the child is not a person so they can rationalize the murder of said child as being perfectly okay. It is known as dehumanization.

I don't expect that it would change anyones mind on pro-choice. But for those that hold an anti-abortion stance, information on the human element that is involved in the womb is a positive message to motivate people to use effective means of birthcontrol, to avoid getting into a situation where they are faced with a choice for an abortion. It might stimulate the maternal instinct, and lead to different choices.

Pictures of African American girls on billboards relating to genocide and graphic photos of abortions just make people angry. There is nothing maternal about this approach. Since abortion is not going away, the best you can hope for is to provide the kind of support and understanding that leads to better choices and outcomes for all that are involved.

I think a very tiny portion of the population are actually pro-abortion. Some women struggle with this decision their entire lives; for them it was not a desirable experience. Whenever someone says the word pro-abortion or murder it is probably painful for many of those that made that difficult choice. Angry words or symbols often are of no use; most of the time they are to the detriment of everyone concerned.

The child in the womb cannot be a functional human person because it does not have enough brain mass or neural interconnection to be a functional human person. Human fetuses are born into the world half baked and small brained to make it possible for the head to go through the birth canal which is somewhat restricted in diameter. If women had birth canals twice as wide as they do, then a baby could be born with a full sized brain (approximately three lb.).

ruveyn