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Vigilans
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11 Apr 2011, 6:49 pm

psychohist wrote:
Bethie wrote:
Much in the way Republicans often can't comprehend satire, as evidenced by how many of them like Stephen Colbert. :D

Indeed - and how Democrats can't comprehend satire, as evidence by how they don't get the humor in Ann Coulter's books.


Coulter is a moronic blood belching vagina. Her stupidity knows no bounds. Her satire is fairly weak at best, compared to a genius like Colbert, who actually knows his s**t. Coulter is regularly lambasted for factual inaccuracies and outright ignorance. She really believes most of the tripe that comes out of her mouth, that is not satire


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11 Apr 2011, 6:56 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
I would like to inform people that this is the FIRST PPR thread where I posted more than 4 times and did not get called a racist. I am very pleased with my performance so far.

Racist!

Quote:
this is the FIRST PPR thread

it it was, it isn't anymore.



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11 Apr 2011, 6:58 pm

blunnet wrote:
HerrGrimm wrote:
I would like to inform people that this is the FIRST PPR thread where I posted more than 4 times and did not get called a racist. I am very pleased with my performance so far.

Racist!

Quote:
this is the FIRST PPR thread

it it was, it isn't anymore.


:lol:


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blunnet
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11 Apr 2011, 7:07 pm

phil777 wrote:
I personnally find it amusing how on this forum, in this thread, it is mostly males discussing about female's rights.

Shouldn't the discussion be "mostly" be left to the ladies? I mean, it does concern THEM more than it concerns us. <.< We're not the ones having to go through pregnancy and emotionnal attachment (if there is any) to the lifeform they're carrying during that time.

Right, it does concern me too though, it doesn't make sense to me to be pro-life (well besides religious reasons), I mean, pro-life ideas will start to make sense to me until every single fetus on earth has the guarantee of a good, satisfactory future-life, all their needs being satisfied and best of all, never ending up in gangs or learning criminal activities, if all of them have the guarantee that any of those will never happen, then pro-life will start to make sense, until then I rather stick with being pro-choice, well, actually I'll be pro-abortion.



Jacoby
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11 Apr 2011, 7:27 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Why does it matter? It does not, the focus of the discussion has shifted to when does person hood begin. Not about consent anymore.

Besides. Someone needs to pay for the machine. Who is it going to pay for it? An adult that wants the baby, I'd guess.

Jacoby wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
A scraped piece of skin is "human life". I don't care about what is or isn't considered "human life", I care about personhood. And fetuses are not people.


well that is your opinion, most people feel differently

Where are your statistics backing your claim that most people feel differently? Why does it matter? Popularity of argument does not make it righter.

Quote:
you don't feel differently if the mom want's the baby right? Still a "piece of skin" right?
Yes. The same thing. Just because I want a job at a gigacorporation, it doesn't mean I work for it.



Quote:
If you do, at least your consistent. A lot of folks I've talked to about abortion also believe it's a human life
but rationalize it's murder by saying they'd do it anyways or that we're better off. Usually the whole not wanting the government interfere in their lives doesn't really play a big role in their arguments. While I could sympathize with that viewpoint, they'd probably have no issue with the government interfering in their lives in just about every other way including paying for the dang abortion.

There is no need to rationalize anything. It is "human life" as in it lives and has human DNA, but we do not care about "human life" that much. We kill sperm all day long and many times intentionally through contraception. We kill many things with human DNA without much penalty, including tumors.

Personhood is a different matter, and I think that it is at least fair to say that something without even a brain shouldn't, ever, ever be considered a person and that is fact. After the development of the brain, you may begin to argue about personhood. But I think it makes most sense legally to use birth as a barrier because it is unambiguous.


It was just a general observation of what most people I've spoken to about abortion, most of whom were in favor of, have thought. Maybe you've experienced differently. It would be an interesting poll tho, I don't believe I've ever seen one on the subject of when life begins but as with all polls it's almost entirely on how the question is framed. I would guess, however, that most people would say that life begins(or "personhood" as the term you guys are using) before birth. The only completely unambiguous barrier is conception



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11 Apr 2011, 9:31 pm

blunnet wrote:
HerrGrimm wrote:
I would like to inform people that this is the FIRST PPR thread where I posted more than 4 times and did not get called a racist. I am very pleased with my performance so far.

Racist!

Quote:
this is the FIRST PPR thread

it it was, it isn't anymore.


Too late, already posted at least 4 times. :D

This probably is a good place to talk about it: what did you guys think about the attempt to defund Planned Parenthood? I think the freedom issue and conservatives' views on abortion are relevant. I don't want people to have abortions, but I do not think it was that important at this time.

Vexcalibur wrote:
That has been the Catholic view of things. That is why they opposed condoms and still think they are only for extreme situations. At least they are consistent, drawing the line at conception is very arbitrary, the only thing the cell has is human DNA, but that's not a big deal.


It is a big deal to me. Usually people I have found (might be different elsewhere) are both anti-abortion and anti-contraception. This leads to many children (previously) under the cycle method or, at the extreme, Ceausescu's orphanages in Romania.

Actually, Pope John XXIII praised the test-tube baby at the time. But he died quickly after pontification and then Pope Paul VI did not listen to the lay people (EDIT: many of whom considered the cycle method "barbaric" and affecting the relationship greatly) at Vatican II and wrote In Vitae Humanae. It is discussed in Papal Sin: Structures of Deceit by Garry Wills. I very much enjoyed the book and it was fascinating.


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Last edited by HerrGrimm on 11 Apr 2011, 11:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

skafather84
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11 Apr 2011, 10:15 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
what did you guys think about the attempt to defund Planned Parenthood?


Control fetishists who actually push for such things....brainwashed sheep who buy into the propaganda they use to sell it.


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psychohist
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12 Apr 2011, 12:07 am

HerrGrimm wrote:
This probably is a good place to talk about it: what did you guys think about the attempt to defund Planned Parenthood? I think the freedom issue and conservatives' views on abortion are relevant. I don't want people to have abortions, but I do not think it was that important at this time.

I don't like riders that target specific organizations, either for funding or defunding. That said, I also lost a lot of respect for Planned Parenthood - and dropped it from my donation list - when they supported a health care bill that, contrary to their fundamental philosophy, prohibited most private health insurance from covering abortion.

I'm glad the Republicans dropped that particular rider, as it shows they are focusing on sane economic policies, which are their strength, rather than on divisive social issues.



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12 Apr 2011, 12:08 am

skafather84 wrote:
HerrGrimm wrote:
what did you guys think about the attempt to defund Planned Parenthood?


Control fetishists who actually push for such things....brainwashed sheep who buy into the propaganda they use to sell it.


We are not just talking about the government. What about the anti-abortion nuts who try to shame mothers and use ad hominem attacks to stop an abortion? There is a Planned Parenthood near me and they hold candlelight vigils in front of it. And then they held a video that Planned Parenthood is helping to commit genocide on African-Americans. Did you know abortion has killed more African-Americans than HIV, cancer, and gang violence combined, and is the number 1 killer overall?

I really would like to know the psychology about these people and see how they tick and how they got that way.

I am conservative (some people, especially on this forum, say I am right-wing; I joke to myself that I can only post here because of the things I have said) but not Republican or their militant arm...er...the Tea Party. The two-party system failed if you see Congress. There needs to be a purging, especially in the Supreme Court, and get new, sensible people who actually care about constituents and not broad party platforms (I believe in a benevolent dictatorship, good chance of that though). This is a progressive-slanted video but I find it hard to see any slant on Pence's words. Or it could be I just hate the way things are in my country and am looking for an excuse to blame politicians again (quite rightly) for their corruption and sabotaging each other with bills and riders.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkMC3i2RGiE&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]


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12 Apr 2011, 7:53 am

phil777 wrote:
I personnally find it amusing how on this forum, in this thread, it is mostly males discussing about female's rights.

Shouldn't the discussion be "mostly" be left to the ladies? I mean, it does concern THEM more than it concerns us. <.< We're not the ones having to go through pregnancy and emotionnal attachment (if there is any) to the lifeform they're carrying during that time.


Well no, for two reasons:

1. If there is a right to abortion, or at least no right on the part of the state to restrict access,
then the sex of the people who decide to grant or take that right away is irrelevant-
I'm in trouble if I'm enduring a high-risk pregnancy that escalates to an emergency situation if I can't procure a late-term abortion easily,
regardless of whether it is women or both women and men who via supporting legislation put me in that situation.

2. If there is NOT a right to abortion, if the state has the right to outlaw abortion for the same reason it outlaws murder,
then women's autonomy is totally irrelevant- it is a societal issue because it has been deemed a universal moral wrong.


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12 Apr 2011, 8:02 am

ruveyn wrote:
The Government claims to own our asses ever April 15.

ruveyn


That, and I have an honest and straightforward attitude about YOUR "rights."

Your "rights" end where my wallet begins.

Want to draw government benefits (or get government-funded services)? You consent to government having a say in how you manage your affairs.

Women say government should pay for free (sic) health care for women. There really is no comparative movement for medical services for men. Well, if you want government paying to take care of your vagina, the government gets a say in what you can do with it.

Simple math. Want to keep your rights to your body? Don't ask government to pay for it.



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12 Apr 2011, 8:10 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Your "rights" end where my wallet begins.

I could assert
Your "rights" end where someone's life is at stake.
zer0netgain wrote:
Women say government should pay for free (sic) health care for women.

I've never said this, and I own a vagina.
zer0netgain wrote:
There really is no comparative movement for medical services for men.

Start one.
zer0netgain wrote:
Well, if you want government paying to take care of your vagina, the government gets a say in what you can do with it.

I don't see why that would be the case, except obvious cost-control measures. That and women's health is a bit more complicated than their vaginas.
zer0netgain wrote:
Simple math. Want to keep your rights to your body? Don't ask government to pay for it.

The irony of this is that rights are meaningless without the ability to exercise them,
and for many, many people, government-subsidized or funded healthcare is the ONLY way they can obtain medical procedures/medicine/etc.


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12 Apr 2011, 8:38 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Your "rights" end where my wallet begins.


How do you justify the arrogance of thinking that your own personal preferences should dictate policy for the entire country? I do not agree with our military spending or our presence in I don't even know how many countries (I think it's around 150 countries), but I don't recall having an opt-out box on my tax return.



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12 Apr 2011, 8:43 am

I don't think that an embryo is a person. I also don't think that a viable fetus is NOT a person.
I think the majority of people agree with this, and yet the only voices that get heard in the media are the extremists at both ends (completely pro-life or pro-choice). I understand that it's easier to deal with sensitive subjects when one chooses to see them as black or white, but is that really how we should be approaching complex issues in our society? Just turn everything into a "yes" or "no" decision?
I feel the same way about gun laws. Can't we let the deer hunters have their rifles without allowing gangsters to buy machine guns? It doesn't HAVE to be all or nothing.



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12 Apr 2011, 8:44 am

Back to topic title:

What about Carla Bruni?

Quote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
That has been the Catholic view of things. That is why they opposed condoms and still think they are only for extreme situations. At least they are consistent, drawing the line at conception is very arbitrary, the only thing the cell has is human DNA, but that's not a big deal.


It is a big deal to me. Usually people I have found (might be different elsewhere) are both anti-abortion and anti-contraception. This leads to many children (previously) under the cycle method or, at the extreme, Ceausescu's orphanages in Romania.

I meant DNA is not really a big deal. Not that their opposition is not a big deal.


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 12 Apr 2011, 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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12 Apr 2011, 8:51 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
I meant DNA is not really a big deal. Not that their opposition is not a big deal.


I actually did not see the last part of your argument, that was completely ironic. I know the DNA was not a big deal.


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