Atheists - prove it.

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Last Eight hours.

Like, I was asleep.

It was not a joke.

It takes two to discuss rationally, each of whom must listen.

You are free to cut me off your list anytime. I am not reasy to cut you off yet, but that last line brings you close.

PBS, after all.

I just took a glass cabernet sauvignon to be able reading this topic.

I'm an agnostic atheist.

So is this what you were, then, before said "investigation"?

(Fourth time.)

Going back a bit to "catch up" a bit after being away for a bit ...

No, I was a Christian who used to go to church drunk and cry for healing at the altar.


The vagaries are actually not on my end, but I do understand my responsibility to be understandable ... and this kind of thing is always a problem with people yet cleaning to "old ideas" (such as even I used to do) ...

"Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like (and not what some ambiguous 'it' used to be like), what happened, and what we are (and not what any ambiguous 'it' is) like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it - then you are ready to take certain steps (and find out for yourself).
"At some of these (actions) we balked. We thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas (about God and/or about whatever else) and the result was nil until we let go absolutely."
(A.A.", the book, page 58)

Last edited by leejosepho on 09 May 2011, 9:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

Two famous if arguably apocryphal quotes relevant here:

Eppur si muove!

Hier steh' ich, ich kann nicht anders.

I yam what I yam, I seen what I seen, I knows what I knows.

Chacun à son dégoût.

Nil desperandum, non disputandum.

I'm OK, you're OK - here anyway.

Quite frankly, my dear, your ability to discuss "rationally" is being laughed about by actual rationalists in PM's.
There's a working tally on how many fallacies you've employed since last night.

Selective memory is common among drunks and alcoholics, even 'recovering' ones. By the time this symptom becomes evident, the brain has been irretrievably damaged. Alkies are likely to 'remember' whatever is convenient for them, which is why alcohol also features so greatly in sightings of Bigfoot, UFOs, Men in Black, Angels, Demons, and God.

Not true! A sovereign God (a monarch) can either do or not do as He wishes.

HALLE-FUCKING-LUJAH, I got a straight answer after a dozen convos.


So your belief in god in fact PRECEDED your recovery from alcoholism and was present throughout at least some of your ordeal,
and so when you constantly bring it up as your personal "evidence" of god,
you are either lying or genuinely don't consider whether religious belief precedes reasons to have it to be an important question.


Screenshot.

Last edited by Bethie on 09 May 2011, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

So he's BOTH good AND powerful enough to stop evil....and chooses not to.

Hence making him NOT good after all.

After the whimsical merry-go-round about whether theism preceded or followed this magical recovery we hear so much about,
I wonder how many more pages we can waste involving THREE variables- we're beginning to approach the astounding logical reasoning of chimps and a few smarter breeds of dog, folks. Buckle up.

Last edited by Bethie on 09 May 2011, 9:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

Whether a belief is ridiculous depends on the reason behind the believe.
There is no better reason to believe in god than believe in invisible fire breathing dragons
Therefore it is equally ridiculous to believe in god as to believe in invisible fire breathing dragons
Belief in invisible fire breathing dragons is ridiculous.
Therefore belief in invisible fire breathing dragons is ridiculous.

Fixed.

I definitely hear you there, and I have given all of that a lot of thought over these past 30 years.

The "change/s of outlook" I experienced was/were always related to the matter of hope, and at the very end of my drinking (as that end ultimately proved to be), the very best "outlook" I still had only amounted to something like "still hoping there might yet be some hope available somewhere" (in the face of having come to have no hope at all) ...

... and then that sense of complete hopelessness is what finally caused/drove me to just stay right down there with my face in the mud until somebody with a solution had finally happened along. So overall then, it could be said I actually had no outlook at all at that time until someone had come along and offered something I could "look out to" (from within my own self-imposed dilemma).

A few years later, however, I had come to understand "how the Steps work", so to speak ...

... and now today I can easily understand the "psychological factor" making it possible for so many people in today's AA -- nothing at all like the original -- who truly do seem to "get help" even though/when "God" is not included or even considered at all. Part of that comes from "the protection of human community" when people spend a lot of time trying to help each other to not drink, and then much of that also comes through various "psychological impacts" experienced as results of conscious attentions paid to matters moral and/or philosophical. But for someone like myself ...

"If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly.
"Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?
"Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem."
("A.A.", the book, pages 44-45)

And as an aside there, please note:

1) The above says, "a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem", and
2) it does not say, "a Power greater than yourself which will (help you) solve your problem", and
3) it does not say, "a Power greater than yourself which will (show you how to) solve your problem."

Yet within many circles today, utilitarianism abounds at the expense of people like myself.

There's a disturbing equivocation between belief and evidence of said belief's veracity. In all your posts.


You DO know utilitarianism has nothing to do with god, nor metaphysics whatsoever, but ethics?

I have been very critical of leejosepho in the past because the concept of God has never made sense to me and many of the formal fantasies about it strike me as totally idiotic. His opinions expressed have not change my own outlook on religion in general nor the existence of God. It seems to me to be an ancient scam bowing to the fears that afflict many of us in life and gulling people to do terrible things throughout history.
But it seems obvious here that leejesepho has solved a real and terribly important problem with his belief and being a pragmatist I cannot but be happy he has found a solution to his difficulty. It in no way changes my opinion of religion. I am just delighted he has gained control of himself, whatever the means.

I hope you are getting that sorted out by now, but just in case not ...

1) My "investigation" was a simple "taste and see" kind of experience that took place during a very specific "course of action" other people had told me would result in my coming to be on a path that actually goes somewhere;
2) My only days of "'believing in' God" were my drunken ones;
3) God never has and never will "help me" do anything. Rather, He then did and today still does for me the very thing -- He manages my life (via Torah) -- I could never successfully do myself ... and as a by-product of that, I no longer have to drink in order to make life almost seem tenable.


You cause me a friendly and very-hearty, self-reflective chuckle there, but the fact of the matter is this:

The Steps I took in order to permanently recover from chronic alcoholism -- whew, I need a macro for that-- were actually only possible for me because they are so very-insulting simple for any intelligent man!