What is so bad about socialism anyways?

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Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 4:27 pm

Tequila wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

I do not think the government regulating basic services, would have to lead to them trying to tell people what to eat, drink, not to smoke ect......and I do not support that but I do support regulations on things like healthcare that would insure all the citizens have access to it.

We have public health care in the UK. Unless you're fairly well-off and have private health care, you're stuck with the state system. Which is variable, at best. Sometimes it's absolutely fantastic, much of the time it's average or mediocre but often it's dreadful. I am not joking but I have at times seen cleaner bus stations than I have hospital wards. It's embarrassing.

The main point is though that because the state basically has the monopoly over healthcare, it can tell its citizens what to eat, drink, smoke etc on pain of potentially refusing treatment to those that don't comply. Even those that have paid their taxes for decades.

Well I have limited knowledge on the UK public healthcare system but from what I have heard I think it could use major improvements. And that sort of control is overkill......if people are paying taxes to go to the healthcare system they should have the right to live as they choose and still recieve access to healthcare. Nothing wrong with putting out information about how to live more healthy but it should not be forced.

Tequila
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11 Aug 2011, 4:31 pm

I'm not anti-state health care by any means as long as the private citizen has complete and final say about what he or she does to his or her own body. The state health bodies can advise... but that is all they should do. Advise. They shouldn't be trying to collect data in order to potentially discriminate against people at a later date. Health care provided by the state must be non-discriminatory, unlike now where they discriminate against smokers and heavy drinkers.

Doctors are in the job of patching people up, not telling their patients how to live their lives.

Otherwise, what's the point in having state health care? One might as well have a private, risk-assessed system.

Last edited by Tequila on 11 Aug 2011, 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 4:32 pm

And basically what I have a problem with is:
The society in the U.S and maybe other countries as well seems to be based upon stepping on as many people as you can to succeed. I know I cannot expect to succeed or even life a comfortable life in such a society, and I know I am not the only one. So I think a society that is more based on helping each other out would be beneficial to a lot of people and would limit some of the 'anti-social' or psychopathic if you prefer behavior that goes on in society.

Maybe socialism is not the answer, but I think there are some good ideas within it.

dopplercb
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11 Aug 2011, 4:32 pm

I don't think there is anything wrong with the tenents of socialism, and I am not sure why it has gone 'bad' every time it has been tried out on a large scale. I think a little socialism in a country's goverment is a good thing. I think we need universal healthcare, personally. being someone who is on tons of meds, I could really use the meds and doc visits being free. I don't see the problem?

Tequila
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11 Aug 2011, 4:34 pm

dopplercb wrote:

I don't think there is anything wrong with the tenents of socialism, and I am not sure why it has gone 'bad' every time it has been tried out on a large scale.

Because it's coercive?
Because it requires killing people - potentially thousands or hundreds of thousands of your own citizens - in order for it to 'work'? And even then it never works.
Because it often necessitates the repression of dissent?
Because it institutionalises misery?
Because it stops people from realising their own potential?
Because it entrenches corruption at all levels?
Because it's always authoritarian and lacks oversight?
Because it stops people being free?

A few pointers.

Last edited by Tequila on 11 Aug 2011, 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 4:35 pm

Tequila wrote:

Hmm it kind of reminds me of the way insurance companies over here operate...they do try to dig up dirt on people so they can find an excuse not to cover them.....regardless of the fact the individual is paying into the system. But yeah that is reasonable....and of course state health care alone is not good enough it has to be effective non-discriminatory state healthcare and if it is not people should take a stand against that issue.

Almighty_CRJ
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11 Aug 2011, 4:36 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Almighty_CRJ wrote:

over9000 wrote:

What is wrong with socialism? I will tell you what is wrong with socialism!

There is nothing more evil than encouraging people to be more dependent on the government.

I'd consider being dependant on businesses to be the greater moral evil -

Do you enjoy eating? Then unless you grow every mouthful of food you eat on your own turf, you depend on business. the business of the farmer who grows food or raises cattle, the business of the distributors that transport it to a place near you and the business of stores that make it available to you in convenient quantities. Just about everything you have is dependent on business. The food you eat, the clothes you wear, your heat, your light your transportation. Without business you would be living in a cave like some Neanderthal.

ruveyn

I really don't see how your post relates to mine - I know I depend on business. We all are. That's why it's the greater moral evil.

Business killed the pig that I ate a part of for lunch, exploited child labour that made the socks I'm wearing, it polluted the environment to bring it to me, then rewarded itself for the task.

Necessary evil perhaps but evil nevertheless.

Tequila
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11 Aug 2011, 4:38 pm

My point is that under a private health care system we should have a free market in which people can work out the package that is best for them for their own needs, wants and desires and which accomodates their risk factors.

The state system needs to be non-discriminatory. Or it'll end up targeting people unfairly. A frequent gripe about smokers and drinkers is that they cost the NHS "billions" - this is untrue; the most costly group of people to the NHS are 'healthy' men and women who live on and on into old age, requiring progressively more expensive treatment.

dopplercb
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11 Aug 2011, 4:40 pm

Tequila wrote:

dopplercb wrote:

I don't think there is anything wrong with the tenents of socialism, and I am not sure why it has gone 'bad' every time it has been tried out on a large scale.

I don't see why it requires killing people, but understand your other points.

Oodain
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11 Aug 2011, 4:42 pm

i think the emotional baggage says more than the ideology.
i never understood the socialism/capitalism debate, in reality a hybrid system can work wonders without suffering from some of the distinct problems both systems have.

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Tequila
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11 Aug 2011, 4:43 pm

dopplercb wrote:

I don't see why it requires killing people, but understand your other points.

What do you with influential people who are a direct threat to your system?

Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 4:46 pm

Tequila wrote:

Fair enough.......and hell in this country I would not have such an issue with a private option if someone chooses, but as it stands that is really the only system we have and it is very discriminatory.

The programs like medicaid we have that are supposed to provide access to medical care to people who cannot afford to buy into the private system is crap and they try as hard as they can to prevent people from getting approved for it.

Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 4:48 pm

Oodain wrote:

Yes a hybrid system does seem to be the way to go.....but I find it hard to belive we have an adequete hybrid system when one of the main talking points politicians bring up is how evil anything 'socialist' is.

Tequila
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11 Aug 2011, 4:50 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Yes, I understand that Medicaid is often very poor, but can you not get health insurance of any kind that would be of any use?

Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 4:52 pm

Tequila wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Yes, I understand that Medicaid is often very poor, but can you not get health insurance of any kind that would be of any use?

No, I cannot afford health insurance for one, and I have pre-existing mental conditiosn(sure I have not been officially diagnosed with anything other than depression) but a diagnoses of AS they could dig up and say even though I was not diagnosed till after I was approved it is a condition that develops in childhood so it was pre-existing.

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11 Aug 2011, 5:14 pm

marshall wrote:

Fnord wrote:

marshall wrote:

... You tell people to "shut the hell up".... Goddamn idiot.

And you call someone who disagrees with you a "Goddamn idiot". Pot ... kettle ... black.

You don't smack someone in the face and not expect retaliation. If you don't want to be called a "goddamn idiot" don't tell me to "shut the hell up". Also, why are you only bothered by my anger when right-wing trolls call people "hippie fa***ts" and tell people to "shut the hell up"? I'm sorry, but people who spout that kind of garbage for the sake of attention seeking have a prepubescent middle school mentality and I would say that most people with a 12 year old mind are indeed idiots.

Hypocrisy doubles the offense, and proves that the hypocrite is no better than/just as bad as the original offender.

Wise up, and take the higher ground.

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