College Students Favoring Wealth Distribution Are Asked.....

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Orwell
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21 Aug 2011, 3:17 am

DW_a_mom wrote:

Come on, I told these guys you could argue better than this. I do not want to be proved wrong.

I'm afraid you will be disappointed. Your faith in humanity is touching, but some members of our species are beyond redemption.

Inuyasha wrote:

Sorry, but it really isn't different, and I'm kinda laughing at several of you here, because you all being so blatently hypocritical it is hysterical.

Inuyasha, you realize that you are being criticized here by DW, who has clearly been doing everything possible to stick up for you and give you the benefit of the doubt, as well as AG, a borderline anarchist who wants even less government involvement than you do? This is not a matter of partisanship, this is a matter of you being completely wrong. The only people who agree with you are shallow-minded dolts who operate on blind partisanship and will never bother to critically analyze anything that seems to confirm their stilted worldview.

Ancalagon wrote:

Quote:

In the Suzie story, what if the daughter's friend was about to flunk out, but a gift of .2 of her grade point might keep her friend in school. Might she not do it then?

Maybe. Maybe not.

How good of a friend is it? Is the friend trying? (If not, helping might not actually help, since the future GPA of the friend could become even lower next time around.)

Actually, I would have been happy to do this at a few points in high school. A friend who started off poorly in physics but then worked his ass off for the rest of the semester and came within a hair's breadth of an A... I would gladly have transferred points from my grade to his. I would have had a slightly lower A, and he would have had an A. The interesting part of that possibility that makes it more akin to social welfare than the simple GPA-averaging analogy is that I am not actually significantly hurt by giving up part of what I "earned" to help another (aside from the fact that I would have a lower margin for error on the final).

I also offered to have a bit of my GPA taken off to help out the class rank of other students. I was valedictorian, and there was a large six-way tie for salutatorian. Several of those students were disappointed that they weren't able to be first, and one of them legitimately did deserve to be at least tied with me.

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Sweetleaf
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21 Aug 2011, 3:29 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Vexcalibur wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

GPA is college's version of money.

Uh, No.

Actually it is, hey you are for income redistribution, so what's so wrong with GPA redistribution.

Well I do not know to what degree you want it spelled out.....but wealth and GPA are NOT comparable, money is something you 'need' to live pretty much at least the way the world is set up. GPA is a messure of how well one does acedemically.....a high GPA is not nessisary and cannot be used to buy the nessecities of life.

Also, as it has already been pointed out, GPAs messure acedemic value.........weath is not a messure of anything other then how much one has aqquired through various means, otherwise all the people who work their asses off but still are not paid enough to support themselves or their families would be wealthy for all that hard work they did.

And your idea that those who agree with 'wealth distribution' are only ok with it if it is not their money is BS, I doubt I am the only one in favor of this to an extent who is also willing for it to apply to them as well. I like to pay taxes provided the money actually goes to things that help the population(I can not trust that is where most of the tax money currently goes..at this point) but yes I support the idea people should pay taxes and that money paid should be re-distributed where needed.

Just because you do not like this particular ideology is no reason for you to attack people...and twist their words around or make accusations.

If you do not understand any of that I am open for questions.

Master_Pedant
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21 Aug 2011, 3:35 am

Orwell wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Come on, I told these guys you could argue better than this. I do not want to be proved wrong.

I'm afraid you will be disappointed. Your faith in humanity is touching, but some members of our species are beyond redemption.

Now, wherever did you learn that??! ! :lol:

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Sweetleaf
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21 Aug 2011, 3:39 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

The point you are defending is that GPA transferral is THE SAME as monetary transferral.

Actually, I think the point is supposed to be that GPA transferral is similar to money transferral. No analogy is exact.

To take an example, in Song of Songs, a woman's neck is compared to a tower. There is a resemblance there, even though her neck isn't constructed of stone.

Ancalagon, here is what Inuyasha has stated:

Quote:

So you're saying someone whom invented a product is now a millionaire from the fruits of his labors, should give up his wealth, but someone whom worked hard for a grade should get to keep their GPA, and you're telling me it is somehow different.

Sorry, but it really isn't different, and I'm kinda laughing at several of you here, because you all being so blatently hypocritical it is hysterical.

Quote:

You are proposing the equivalent of giving someone a grade that they have not earned, just cause you get stressed out around people does not mean you can't handle having a job, even if it is volunteer work.

Quote:

GPA is college's version of money. So if you all are for wealthy people giving up their money for you to have, it is perfectly reasonable that you spread the "wealth" of your gpa around.

Ancalagon, Inuyasha's words are plain. He regards the two acts as equivalent for our practical purposes in this discussion. Any point you have to make is AT MOST a nitpick. I am UNCONCERNED with such efforts though, as I am not overly concerned with the perfect analytical choice of words. My meaning was clearly conveyed to all but the most anal and that satisfies me.

Well for one......those who support wealth distribution do not want the wealth re-distributed 'just so they can have it' the way re-distributing a high GPA to students who did nothing at all to earn the grade just so they can have it. See in this world you NEED money to survive right? so could it be that people support wealth distribution because there are some people who have no money or not enough money to freaking support themselves and maybe their families might need a bit of help with that?

Also the idea that wealth is a messure of how hard one has worked is a bunch of crap, as I said before if it were all those people who actually go out and do a bunch of hard work would be wealthy due to their honest hard work. truth is you have to learn to play the game, that is all its about......so it is a very bad analogy considering there is nothing simular about a GPA and wealth.

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21 Aug 2011, 7:59 am

I wonder how many of his ilk would submit to the opposite experiment?

Money will be treated like GPA:
First of all, there will be a set limit to how much and how little money you can have, much like how a GPA must fall between 0.0 and 4.0. Let's say a 4.0 corresponds to a $100,000 yearly income. Since a 0.0 GPA corresponds not to an average class grade of 0, but any average grade less than or equal to 59, let's split the difference and say the minimum amount of money will be $30,000.
Everyone will start out with the same amount of money.
You are prohibited from having other people do your work for you.
Plagiarism is prohibited
Money will be given on the basis of your current quality of work - your previous performance will not allow you to receive a yearly salary equal to the previous if your quality of work declines. Just like how if you have a cumulative 4.0, if you produce 2.0 work the next year, you do not continue to have a 4.0.
If you have earned a lot of money in the past, there is no way of using this to earn you more money this year. This is like how having a 4.0 GPA does not allow you to invest in other classes you are not taking in order to earn more GPA.
The difficulty of the work you are performing will not be taken into account - a computer engineer will get the same pay for performing his job very well as a record store sales clerk - much in the same way that getting all A's in advanced engineering classes will give you the same GPA as getting all A's in classes about the history of popular music.
The distribution of money will end up looking a lot like this:

So, how many conservative/libertarians are willing to sign onto the version of the world where money works more like GPA?

wcoltd
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21 Aug 2011, 8:46 am

Master_Pedant wrote:

wcoltd wrote:

The point of this exercise is obvious to anyone who wants to see it. I believe people can construct defense mechanisms which are impossible to penetrate through rationality alone. You can split the finest of hairs because there is no such thing as a perfect analogy.

This exercise shows how people who favor wealth distribution don't take it upon themselves to distribute their own wealth. Whether or not that wealth be in the form of money - or as in the case of this experiment - in the form of a high GPA.

Wcoltd's post shows that there's a subset of pro-deflation, economic extreme rightists who just don't care about intellectual honesty so long as they can score cheap political points based on piss-poor analogies.

You can call me whatever you'd like to, but it does nothing to discredit the merit of the arguments being made.

Suppose the GPA were redistributed, what problems would we have? Well people would have no incentive to work hard, because it would hardly impact their own GPA. In practical terms people are very sensitive when their hard work is taken from them, and this sensitivity is stronger than their ideology. People recognize the right to their own work.

The point of the exercise was not to say GPA and money are equivalent. They are in the sense that they represent a form of wealth. The reasons for not wanting to distribute GPA are similiar to the ones for not wanting to redistribute money. You can be for redistributing money and not GPA, but if the reason is because "You do not want your hard work taken away from you" or "You don't see why other people should benefit from your high GPA" those same justifications can be used when put in terms of money. So it is ironic.

Vexcalibur
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21 Aug 2011, 8:53 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Vexcalibur wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

GPA is college's version of money.

Uh, No.

Actually it is, hey you are for income redistribution, so what's so wrong with GPA redistribution.

I never said GPA redistribution was 'wrong'. I said it is a very stupid BS analogy, because it is. Redistributing GPA is not "wrong" it is absurd and a non-sensical attempt at avoiding the real discussion about wealth redistribution,and I do not really know if I agree with wealth redistribution, but if your best argument against it is this broken comparison, then I guess maybe you intrinsically agree with it inside your subconsciousness or you are too inept to find a compelling argument against it.

You cannot trade GPA for goods or services. You even cannot trade GPA, period. You can't control what happens to your GPA once you get it. So, college students wouldn't have to disagree with the proposition, because whether they agree or not, it wouldn't really affect their GPAs.

Its role inacademy is nothing like "money" or wealth.

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Sweetleaf
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21 Aug 2011, 10:00 am

Ancalagon wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

The point you are defending is that GPA transferral is THE SAME as monetary transferral.

Uhh it is not simular at all though.

Awesomelyglorious
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21 Aug 2011, 10:20 am

Ancalagon wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Ancalagon, Inuyasha's words are plain.

I was referring to the point of the analogy in the OP, not Inuyasha's position specifically.

You quoted me, and I referred to Inuyasha. No matter how you interpret it, you made a clear error and I am pissed off enough as Inuyasha's brand of foolishness that I am not going to tolerate yours either, Ancalagon.

NoPast
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21 Aug 2011, 11:03 am

wcoltd wrote:

Suppose the GPA were redistributed, what problems would we have? Well people would have no incentive to work hard, because it would hardly impact their own GPA..

in the 1950s, the top marginal tax rates were over 90 percent and it was the "economic boom " period

with Obama the US has the lowest top marginal tax rates ever....and well the economic is not going that well

conservative/libertarian greatly overestimate the diminuishing return of taxes and incentive,basically they fail in the "I don't want to be a millionaire,too many taxes!" fallacy

DW_a_mom
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21 Aug 2011, 11:31 am

wcoltd wrote:

The reasons for not wanting to distribute GPA are similiar to the ones for not wanting to redistribute money. You can be for redistributing money and not GPA, but if the reason is because "You do not want your hard work taken away from you" or "You don't see why other people should benefit from your high GPA" those same justifications can be used when put in terms of money. So it is ironic.

Those are NOT the reasons that have been given. Are you actually reading?

Grades are an effort at an objective measure and it is considered unethical to share them. Yet many of us would want to, anyway, if the situation contained enough elements of need or fairness.

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DW_a_mom
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21 Aug 2011, 11:35 am

NoPast wrote:

I wonder how many of his ilk would submit to the opposite experiment?

Money will be treated like GPA:

....

So, how many conservative/libertarians are willing to sign onto the version of the world where money works more like GPA?

Oh, I like this argument! Honestly, I wouldn't take that deal, either. Which helps prove the point, doesn't it?

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DW_a_mom
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21 Aug 2011, 11:41 am

NoPast wrote:

wcoltd wrote:

Suppose the GPA were redistributed, what problems would we have? Well people would have no incentive to work hard, because it would hardly impact their own GPA..

I love to suggest that we simply return to Reagan's tax rates

Although I'll settle for the pre-Bush Jr tax code with maybe a few taxpayer friendly tweaks in a couple of areas, if that can be done without it being too costly.

And that 90% tax bracket existed in multiple decades. But I'd rather not go back to anything over 50%, personally; people should get to keep more of their money than they are taxed out of, it is just a mental line.

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Orwell
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21 Aug 2011, 1:26 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

NoPast wrote:

Oh, I like this argument! Honestly, I wouldn't take that deal, either. Which helps prove the point, doesn't it?

Yeah, that deal would be way too egalitarian for me. Looks like GPA is already way closer to socialism than financial matters ever will be.

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Ancalagon
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21 Aug 2011, 2:07 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

If I misinterpreted your intent as going after the analogy in general rather than Inuyasha's interpretation, please excuse my 'clear error'. You did talk to Inuyasha about 'the point you are defending' not 'your position'.

I don't have a problem with misinterpretations on my part being called out. I do have a problem with being arbitrarily labelled a fool.

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21 Aug 2011, 3:04 pm

wcoltd wrote:

You can call me whatever you'd like to, but it does nothing to discredit the merit of the arguments being made.

Your argument has ZERO merit. The severe disanalogy between GPA and money has been pointed out numerous times, you've decided to ignore it. Hence your gross intellectual dishonesty.

wcoltd wrote:

Suppose the GPA were redistributed, what problems would we have? Well people would have no incentive to work hard, because it would hardly impact their own GPA. In practical terms people are very sensitive when their hard work is taken from them, and this sensitivity is stronger than their ideology. People recognize the right to their own work.

If people could achieve exceptional grades of 7.0/4.0 that wouldn't be factored into the current program, but could be transfered to other courses or failing relatives (i.e. George H.W. Bush transfers 3 of his excess points to loser George W. Bush), then the analogy might work.

wcoltd wrote:

The point of the exercise was not to say GPA and money are equivalent. They are in the sense that they represent a form of wealth. The reasons for not wanting to distribute GPA are similiar to the ones for not wanting to redistribute money. You can be for redistributing money and not GPA, but if the reason is because "You do not want your hard work taken away from you" or "You don't see why other people should benefit from your high GPA" those same justifications can be used when put in terms of money. So it is ironic.

I would not favour redistributing wealth if the inital distribution was like this:

NoPast wrote:

So, how many conservative/libertarians are willing to sign onto the version of the world where money works more like GPA?

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