Why don't the faithful hold God morally accountable?

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Joker
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30 Apr 2012, 2:13 pm

It takes more then just Faith to believe in God.

Pyrite
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30 Apr 2012, 2:46 pm

Joker wrote:

It takes more then just Faith to believe in God.

The two aren't necessarily associated. I don't think you need to have faith in god to believe in him (I have been using "faith" to mean confidence in god's judgment/wisdom/mysterious ways rather than as a synonym for theism), although the reverse would be difficult.

As in the case of the pagan gods who are jerks (mentioned earlier in the thread), belief does not require faith, even religious observance can be explained purely through fear of punishment (although this is not always the only reason for compliance). People can "lose faith" in god or religion without becoming atheists or questioning god's existence. Although atheism may seem a more appealing explanation than divine indifference or antipathy in such cases both possibilities are generally considered.

Joker
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30 Apr 2012, 2:53 pm

Pyrite wrote:

Joker wrote:

It takes more then just Faith to believe in God.

Some of the pagan gods where jerks in their beliefs most people view gods are crule beings how ever in native american religion they view gods as the earth moon and sun because they depend on them to live. Also the cherokee would whorship nature and gave them names like the rain god who would bless them with water to drink ect. I knew what you meant btw but their are both good and bad qualitys of the christian god the jews have their view of him that would seem more harsh also the muslims view god as a loving god only if you are a muslim.

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02 May 2012, 4:47 pm

abacacus wrote:

To you maybe, to me it's hilarious.

Christians are people to and as humans they are very flawed... not all christians are like that either

Joker
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02 May 2012, 5:54 pm

lilbetta wrote:

abacacus wrote:

To you maybe, to me it's hilarious.

Christians are people to and as humans they are very flawed... not all christians are like that either

Excellent I agree.

slave
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02 May 2012, 6:03 pm

abacacus wrote:

MarketAndChurch wrote:

Why should one hold God accountable when the majority of our suffering are not natural, but rather, manmade...

If one is fair, then simply ask yourself that, does most of your suffering come from natural causes, like your autism, or the death of a relative due to cancer, or a tornado, or does it come from other human beings, who talk behind your back, talk ill in front of you or to you, do not treat people you well, etc.

If God held humanity accountable since Cain, and despite a flood, we still act the way we do, then if we destroy this world or each other, we are responsible for that, and does not reflect on God.

If you put God on Trial, at least be fair in the way you do it.

Okay then, here's a fair trial:

Why did your god command so many atrocities? You know, human sacrifice, the murder of infants, the murder of entire towns or even nations, horrific punishments such as being burned alive, etc.

Perhaps he enjoyed it.

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02 May 2012, 6:06 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:

No, really. It sounds like a simple question, doesn't it? One that might admit an easy answer? But it doesn't. The best one I've gotten was from our very own Shrox, who (to paraphrase) said, "He came down to Earth to let us kill Him - sounds like moral accountability to me," (a note to Shrox and others: I'm paraphrasing because I'm too lazy to hunt for the exact quote in the archives. My apologies, and I'll hunt it down if you would like me to).

The essential question is this: why is God considered just, moral, and/or merciful when many of his supposed teachings, commandments and actions are unjust (eternal punishments for finite transgressions, slaughter in response to relatively small provocation, commanding his followers to murder gentiles in order to steal and/or rape their women), unmerciful (creation of suffering in response to original sin, death/hell in general) or just straight up immoral (go ahead, check out the OT's policies on rape. No, go on. I will wait while you read)? Starting from a standpoint that God exists and actually Does Stuff with His great omnipotence, why is it that those who choose to believe in Him fail to hold Him morally accountable for His own actions? Aside from Shrox's (rather refreshing) answer, the only one I've ever gotten boils down to, "Well, He works in mysterious ways," which sounds to me like a cop-out method of avoiding thought on one's own theology. Can anyone give me an answer on this? Anyone at all?

Because it would create cognitive dissonance and they are too insecure and/or weak-minded to take it.

Joker
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02 May 2012, 6:06 pm

slave wrote:

abacacus wrote:

MarketAndChurch wrote:

Perhaps he enjoyed it.

Those that disobey God where the ones that felt his wrath.

slave
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02 May 2012, 6:12 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:

abacacus wrote:

MarketAndChurch wrote:

Examples please...

So.........you never read the Bible?

Joker
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02 May 2012, 6:14 pm

slave wrote:

MarketAndChurch wrote:

abacacus wrote:

MarketAndChurch wrote:

Examples please...

So.........you never read the Bible?

I have which stories are you referring to?

slave
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02 May 2012, 6:20 pm

Joker wrote:

abacacus wrote:

Joker wrote:

That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement.

Why? According to the bible you have to follow the old testament as well. Even if you weren't, the bible also says that god doesn't change. You are worshipping the god that commanded those atrocities. Now justify his ordering of them, don't dance around the issue.

Your right but I foucus on the New Testement to most christians, we view the Old Testement as part of the history of our faith but we do not follow such laws because we go by what Jesus of nazareth taught that is what being a christian is.

And that is EXACTLY what many Xtians do. They ignore the history of THE GREAT BUTCHER in the OT and embrace Jesus...and Jesus IS God....but....but...wait....then Jesus IS 'THE GREAT BUTCHER'.
All part of the delusional disorder.

slave
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02 May 2012, 6:28 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:

abacacus wrote:

MarketAndChurch wrote:

abacacus wrote:

Joker wrote:

abacacus wrote:

Joker wrote:

That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement.

...and part of what Jesus said was not to set the old laws aside...

but rather to put them into context, mostly with the new testament taking the lead, and square the two books. Original Sin is not a jewish concept, largely a new-testament inspired play on an old testament story. It is a balancing act that 2000 years of study has learned to balance, and some doctrines Christians accept, and some they don't.

What possible context is there for burning people alive? Are you trying to claim that it isn't reprehensible to take a living person and light them on fire under ANY circumstances? O_O

No, when I say context, I mean that there are two books, the old and the new, and things don't always square up because the old evolved and got a new take when the new came along. One then views the old through the lens of the new, and where there is conflict, one then adopts the new ones interpretation on things, and that is how Christianity made peace with its roots.

Can you name another man who burned his daughter as an offering to God in 4000+ years of Jewish life? What can one possibly learn from this... if there is anything to learn at all... It takes nothing to dump on the bible, any crackpot can cite a verse here and a verse there. Imagine if someone took a few lines from a piece of writing of Shakespeare or Hemingway or Dickens or Orwell out of context and tried to then say that any one of those authors were an idiot, one would immediately demand to know what education they have in literature, or what they degree they hold, but the bible seems free for anyone to dump on without knowing a thing about it.

quit dodging the question!

slave
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02 May 2012, 6:33 pm

Ragtime wrote:

abacacus wrote:

That is complete bull :lol:

One could make the same argument and say the politicians who banned paedophilia could freely engage in it, because they created the law and as such they are above it.

Flaw: The politicians create laws which expressly state they are for all people in the state/nation, not certain classes of people therein. God created laws which expressly state they are for all humans, and not for Himself as well.

Also, how would you be able to define being moral when it comes to God? I'll explain what I mean. One law He gave in the Old Testament is not to look upon the nakedness of any family member. Well, being God, he is omnipresent and sees all. So, that moral law would be inapplicable to Him. As would many others. If God kills a human, it's simply reversing His own previous action: creating that human. Whereas, when we murder someone, we violate the Creator's act of having put that person into existence. A person is allowed to inflate, then deflate his own tires; he is not allowed to, after watching someone else inflate their own tires, come over to that person's car and deflate them. Same reasoning goes. God owns us. We do not own each other. Also, his law is not to murder, which is killing for no justifiable reason. Well, when God kills someone, He has His reasons, and being a just God, they are therefore just reasons.

Flaw: a priori.....circular argument

slave
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02 May 2012, 6:38 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Personally, I've always wondered why there is so much anger against God from non-believers in Him, yet they have absolutely zero problem with Satan. Satan and his angels, whether you believe in him/them or not, are the primary influences toward pain and suffering in this world. So, non-believers in him not even having a theoretical problem with Satan always strikes me as interesting, particularly when I hear so much vitriol uttered against God by the same people. I could pick from so many examples, but Richard Dawkins comes first to my mind: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” It is exceedingly rare -- if not without parallel -- for a fictional character to inspire such a level of feeling.
I've never heard Satan even described as, say, "bad" by a non-believer. It's just really interesting to me. The author of the Holocaust and all other pain, suffering, and death, not considered even "bad". But God, the creator of us all, and the giver of life (air, food, water, etc, etc, etc, etc) to us all, who expects simple obedience and respect, He's called vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent.

I'm not confused by this at all, but on the surface it is quite odd. And it is an incorrect reaction by them, to be sure, even though it's understandable.

Satan who?

shrox
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02 May 2012, 7:12 pm

slave wrote:

Joker wrote:

abacacus wrote:

Joker wrote:

That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement.

You could reread my response...

Joker
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02 May 2012, 8:03 pm

slave wrote:

Joker wrote:

abacacus wrote:

Joker wrote:

That is all from the old testement how about from the new testement.

Jesus and God are not really one of the same their part of the holy trinity and calling us delusional is a attack against theists btw.

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