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Is America heading towards fascism?

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thomas81
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12 Nov 2012, 5:16 pm

I think Marx nailed this particular point in as much as this:

"But you communists wish to do away with private property! Scream the bourgeoisie in chorus. There is no need, for capitalism already has destroyed it, and continues to destroy it daily, for all but one tenth of the population".

Excerpt from the communist manifesto



adb
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12 Nov 2012, 5:39 pm

RushKing wrote:
Tyranny is tyranny regardless of how small and private it is. A society where people become slaves to land "owners" is not a society I want to live in. Your idea of liberty is ridiculous.

So, to follow your logic to its natural conclusion, you should be able to dictate what I do inside my home. If I don't comply, you will use force to get your way.

I think your idea of tyranny is when someone else tells you what to do. It seems everything is fine when you're the one dictating

I'll take ruveyn's idea of liberty. It respects that he and I may have different opinions.



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12 Nov 2012, 5:43 pm

thomas81 wrote:
I think Marx nailed this particular point in as much as this:

"But you communists wish to do away with private property! Scream the bourgeoisie in chorus. There is no need, for capitalism already has destroyed it, and continues to destroy it daily, for all but one tenth of the population".

Excerpt from the communist manifesto


That's like, Marx's opinion, bro. He was passionate though, I'll give him that. Unlike the current whishy washy communists we see today. There were injustices occurring in the system he saw around him, which he saw as capitalism. The thing is though, a true free-market economy, aka "capitalism", has never existed in the history of EVER. There are places that come close, like Honk Kong. You should look up how that city is doing, seems like a nice place to live. A bit close to that festering amalgamation of communism and corporatism, though.



thomas81
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12 Nov 2012, 6:01 pm

Seabass wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I think Marx nailed this particular point in as much as this:

"But you communists wish to do away with private property! Scream the bourgeoisie in chorus. There is no need, for capitalism already has destroyed it, and continues to destroy it daily, for all but one tenth of the population".

Excerpt from the communist manifesto


That's like, Marx's opinion, bro. He was passionate though, I'll give him that. Unlike the current whishy washy communists we see today. There were injustices occurring in the system he saw around him, which he saw as capitalism. The thing is though, a true free-market economy, aka "capitalism", has never existed in the history of EVER. There are places that come close, like Honk Kong. You should look up how that city is doing, seems like a nice place to live. A bit close to that festering amalgamation of communism and corporatism, though.


How can it be just an opinion if thats the empirical truth of what he was seeing around him?

The funny thing is, the first ones in line to decry and discredit Marx's ideas are usually the rich or well off folk with the most to lose. What else do you expect?



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12 Nov 2012, 6:22 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Seabass wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I think Marx nailed this particular point in as much as this:

"But you communists wish to do away with private property! Scream the bourgeoisie in chorus. There is no need, for capitalism already has destroyed it, and continues to destroy it daily, for all but one tenth of the population".

Excerpt from the communist manifesto


That's like, Marx's opinion, bro. He was passionate though, I'll give him that. Unlike the current whishy washy communists we see today. There were injustices occurring in the system he saw around him, which he saw as capitalism. The thing is though, a true free-market economy, aka "capitalism", has never existed in the history of EVER. There are places that come close, like Honk Kong. You should look up how that city is doing, seems like a nice place to live. A bit close to that festering amalgamation of communism and corporatism, though.


How can it be just an opinion if thats the empirical truth of what he was seeing around him?

The funny thing is, the first ones in line to decry and discredit Marx's ideas are usually the rich or well off folk with the most to lose. What else do you expect?


First off, most ideas concerning political systems are opinions. We're never going to develop the "perfect" governing system. Everyone is trying to figure out what is wrong with the current system and how it can be fixed. But that's never going to happen, we're human.

Second, the empirical truth you're referring to was that people were being manipulated and sucked dry by those above them. Was it due to capitalism? Marx liked to think so. So do you, apparently. You decree it a FACT. But, in my opinion, I saw other implications, such as the manipulation of the free market itself by greedy bankers, which was what caused the suffering of the common man.



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12 Nov 2012, 6:38 pm

So the Libertarians believe if a man sits at the wrong segregated lunch counter that he should be thrown in jail?



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12 Nov 2012, 6:44 pm

thomas81 wrote:
The funny thing is, the first ones in line to decry and discredit Marx's ideas are usually the rich or well off folk with the most to lose. What else do you expect?


And that the most enthusiastic proponents of Marxism are those that have the most to gain by it says?


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12 Nov 2012, 6:46 pm

As soon as communism promises immortality the rich start to listen.



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12 Nov 2012, 6:46 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
So the Libertarians believe if a man sits at the wrong segregated lunch counter that he should be thrown in jail?


A libertarian believes the owner of a restaurant should be able to serve anyone he wants to. After all, it is HIS restaurant. Not the government's restaurant or society's restaurant.

However a restaurant which is located in a government own area as a concession should not be permitted to discriminate in any way.

ruveyn



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12 Nov 2012, 6:50 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
So the Libertarians believe if a man sits at the wrong segregated lunch counter that he should be thrown in jail?


No, government should stay out of equation, period. Most forward thinking libertarians would think that the owner of the place where this lunch counter is located is in the wrong. Should he be allowed to exclude those he wishes from dining in his establishment? Yes, unfortunately so. Do those being segregated have the right to protest this lack of equality? Hell yes. I believe that's what they actually did, and faced stiff consequences because of it. But eventually, as it should, they're hard work payed off. Most logical business owners these days know that excluding any type of customer is terrible for business.



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12 Nov 2012, 6:53 pm

Let me rephrase the question a man who brings his own bag lunch in case he is not served should be arrested for sitting at the wrong segregated lunch counter?



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12 Nov 2012, 6:54 pm

Seabass wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
So the Libertarians believe if a man sits at the wrong segregated lunch counter that he should be thrown in jail?


No, government should stay out of equation, period. Most forward thinking libertarians would think that the owner of the place where this lunch counter is located is in the wrong. Should he be allowed to exclude those he wishes from dining in his establishment? Yes, unfortunately so. Do those being segregated have the right to protest this lack of equality? Hell yes. I believe that's what they actually did, and faced stiff consequences because of it. But eventually, as it should, they're hard work payed off. Most logical business owners these days know that excluding any type of customer is terrible for business.


A restaurant or hotel that discriminates against anyone for totally idiotic reasons such as race, religion or sexual preference will get none of my patronage. While I respect the rights of owners, I do not have to like their policies or do business with them.

ruveyn



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12 Nov 2012, 7:00 pm

When Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat the bus driver could have refused to drive the bus but this is not what happened . Rosa Parks was thrown in jail and I wonder what the Libertarians have to say about that.



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12 Nov 2012, 7:07 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Let me rephrase the question a man who brings his own bag lunch in case he is not served should be arrested for sitting at the wrong segregated lunch counter?


The situation has not changed. It is not illegal to enter a private business that doesn't keep its doors barred shut, I think. I'm pretty sure that's the case for restaurants, at least. The owner of wherever this lunch counter is though could prohibit specific groups from entering. It's up to the owner to implement this prohibition. Something that I think would be VERY difficult this day and age. They're just gonna set themselves up for retaliation from the community. Never does government or law enforcement get involved, in a true libertarian system.



ruveyn
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12 Nov 2012, 7:08 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
When Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat the bus driver could have refused to drive the bus but this is not what happened . Rosa Parks was thrown in jail and I wonder what the Libertarians have to say about that.


If the bus was privately owned Rosa was constrained to abide by the rule of the bus company owners. If the bus was a municipal bus funded by tax revenues then the operator of the bus had no right to force Rosa to sit in the back.

Question: was the bus a privately owned bus or a municipal bus?

As a general rule libertarians respect property ownership.

ruveyn



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12 Nov 2012, 7:18 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Seabass wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
So the Libertarians believe if a man sits at the wrong segregated lunch counter that he should be thrown in jail?


No, government should stay out of equation, period. Most forward thinking libertarians would think that the owner of the place where this lunch counter is located is in the wrong. Should he be allowed to exclude those he wishes from dining in his establishment? Yes, unfortunately so. Do those being segregated have the right to protest this lack of equality? Hell yes. I believe that's what they actually did, and faced stiff consequences because of it. But eventually, as it should, they're hard work payed off. Most logical business owners these days know that excluding any type of customer is terrible for business.


A restaurant or hotel that discriminates against anyone for totally idiotic reasons such as race, religion or sexual preference will get none of my patronage. While I respect the rights of owners, I do not have to like their policies or do business with them.



ruveyn


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