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Is God Santa Claus for adults?

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NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 2:51 pm

What I was trying to say which I think caused the major frustration on your end was the statement of how an Atheist does not have a moral framework and can create their own value system, I was creating a value system and moral framework of my own, regardless of what the reality was.

You imply it to me that it is as simple as it sounds, I can wake up one morning and call myself an Atheist simply because I can because it's apart of my values and reality, that I choose to decide And that's it. You make it sound like it's something bigger than what it is, when in reality it's just that. You said so yourself that you pick and choose your own morality and values. So is it not fair to say in my own reality and values that I can call myself an Atheist at anytime? I mean, really? I feel you pick and choose the facts that you agree with, not the ones you don't even if they are valid.

Accepting the fact that Atheism is morally relative, why in my example of that, why did it aggravate you and Abascus? Can I not pick and choose my own morals, even if they are perceived to be wrong in the face of blinding reality and fact? Where does Atheism stand on that position?

Best Regards,

Jake


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TallyMan
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03 Dec 2012, 3:13 pm

NAKnight wrote:
What I was trying to say which I think caused the major frustration on your end was the statement of how an Atheist does not have a moral framework and can create their own value system, I was creating a value system and moral framework of my own, regardless of what the reality was.

You imply it to me that it is as simple as it sounds, I can wake up one morning and call myself an Atheist simply because I can because it's apart of my values and reality, that I choose to decide And that's it. You make it sound like it's something bigger than what it is, when in reality it's just that. You said so yourself that you pick and choose your own morality and values. So is it not fair to say in my own reality and values that I can call myself an Atheist at anytime? I mean, really? I feel you pick and choose the facts that you agree with, not the ones you don't even if they are valid.

Accepting the fact that Atheism is morally relative, why in my example of that, why did it aggravate you and Abascus? Can I not pick and choose my own morals, even if they are perceived to be wrong in the face of blinding reality and fact? Where does Atheism stand on that position?

Best Regards,

Jake


This thing I disagreed with (but this may simply may be my interpretation of what you are saying) is that one simply chooses to be an atheist. While this may be true it isn't as simple as putting on a hat that you may take off later in the day and back on again tomorrow. Though I suppose someone could hesitate and sit on the fence and have doubts about their religious beliefs and oscillate somewhat between being a believer and atheist, but semantically I'd call that state agnosticism.


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03 Dec 2012, 3:16 pm

NAKnight wrote:
What I was trying to say which I think caused the major frustration on your end was the statement of how an Atheist does not have a moral framework and can create their own value system, I was creating a value system and moral framework of my own, regardless of what the reality was.

You imply it to me that it is as simple as it sounds, I can wake up one morning and call myself an Atheist simply because I can because it's apart of my values and reality, that I choose to decide And that's it. You make it sound like it's something bigger than what it is, when in reality it's just that. You said so yourself that you pick and choose your own morality and values. So is it not fair to say in my own reality and values that I can call myself an Atheist at anytime? I mean, really? I feel you pick and choose the facts that you agree with, not the ones you don't even if they are valid.

Accepting the fact that Atheism is morally relative, why in my example of that, why did it aggravate you and Abascus? Can I not pick and choose my own morals, even if they are perceived to be wrong in the face of blinding reality and fact? Where does Atheism stand on that position?

Best Regards,

Jake


While acknowledging that I may be choosing to debate with someone capable of regenerating damage from all sources except fire and acid, I choose to enter this discussion.

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?



NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 3:16 pm

Quote:
This thing I disagreed with (but this may simply may be my interpretation of what you are saying) is that one simply chooses to be an atheist. While this may be true it isn't as simple as putting on a hat that you may take off later in the day and back on again tomorrow.


Is there a process I'm missing?


Best Regards,

Jake


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TallyMan
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03 Dec 2012, 3:25 pm

NAKnight wrote:
Quote:
This thing I disagreed with (but this may simply may be my interpretation of what you are saying) is that one simply chooses to be an atheist. While this may be true it isn't as simple as putting on a hat that you may take off later in the day and back on again tomorrow.


Is there a process I'm missing?


Best Regards,

Jake


I think that what I'm getting at is depth. Atheism isn't a superficial opinion such as preferring Pepsi to Coke. I guess the same could be said of religious belief... there are devout believers and those who are superficial believers in name only who only ever think of God at weddings and funerals and never attend any church but they call themselves Christians anyway.

To me (others may disagree) atheism means ridding one's mind of dogma and being open to discover whatever is real. This is done through science and logic. They are tools to understand the nature of reality. Science uncovers what is real. As such we have no beliefs as such; we simply take whatever facts science uncovers. Some people may find this an unsatisfactory state of affairs as science is never complete, new and deeper discoveries are made every day, but personally I find this very exciting, digging deeper and deeper into the nature of reality and what makes the universe and life within it tick.


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NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 3:34 pm

Quote:
While acknowledging that I may be choosing to debate with someone capable of regenerating damage from all sources except fire and acid, I choose to enter this discussion.

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because at the end of the day, your values and principle's define your beliefs.
Even if you value system and belief system is not to have a value and belief system.

"You can choose not to decide, but you still have a made a choice.."

Best Regards,

Jake


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GGPViper
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03 Dec 2012, 3:48 pm

NAKnight wrote:
Quote:
While acknowledging that I may be choosing to debate with someone capable of regenerating damage from all sources except fire and acid, I choose to enter this discussion.

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because at the end of the day, your values and principle's define your beliefs?


How?



NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:05 pm

What you value determines what decisions you'll make on a day-to-day basis
you value something, otherwise you wouldn't have been so quick to jump on board.

When you start typing your response, you'll base your response on some value you feel I have engaged. I'm guessing Security.

To claim you don't have "values" is the same as me claiming "The Sky is Red" everyone has values, regardless of what religious or non-religious affiliation, I don't care who you are.

An example of values are this;

Truth
Justice
Independence
Success
Money/Wealth
Time

People make decisions on what they value the most. I value truth the most, because it teaches me more about myself and I value that. The method to me arriving at that
conclusion is through personal experience and age.

Best Regards,

Jake


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GGPViper
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03 Dec 2012, 4:16 pm

NAKnight wrote:
What you value determines what decisions you'll make on a day-to-day basis
you value something, otherwise you wouldn't have been so quick to jump on board.

When you start typing your response, you'll base your response on some value you feel I have engaged. I'm guessing Security.

To claim you don't have "values" is the same as me claiming "The Sky is Red" everyone has values, regardless of what religious or non-religious affiliation, I don't care who you are.

An example of values are this;

Truth
Justice
Independence
Success
Money/Wealth
Time

People make decisions on what they value the most. I value truth the most, because it teaches me more about myself and I value that. The method to me arriving at that
conclusion is through personal experience and age.

Best Regards,

Jake


That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?



NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:17 pm

I can infer from TallyMan that he values truth, logic and reasoning. I completely agree with him on that. The way he and I arrived to the "truth logic and reasoning" is by our own making. I'm engaging his and Abascus' values to see why/how the way they think Atheism is a fit for them.

Best Regards,

Jake


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NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:20 pm

Quote:
That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because values determines what you fight so hard to prove.
Atheism has a value system, it's lack of belief is only a part of that. Atheism value system is whatever the person decides, is that not correct?
Addressing the values or lack of determines the core reasons why you believe what you do.

Best Regards,

Jake


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Last edited by NAKnight on 03 Dec 2012, 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GGPViper
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03 Dec 2012, 4:25 pm

NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because values determines what you fight so hard to prove.


This is irrelevant to the relation between value and fact.

NAKnight wrote:
Atheism has a value system, it's lack of belief is only a part of that.


Prove it.

NAKnight wrote:
Addressing the values determines the core reasons why you believe what you do.


Irrelevant.



NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:35 pm

GGPViper wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because values determines what you fight so hard to prove.


This is irrelevant to the relation between value and fact.

NAKnight wrote:
Atheism has a value system, it's lack of belief is only a part of that.


Prove it.

NAKnight wrote:
Addressing the values determines the core reasons why you believe what you do.


Irrelevant.



Okay. I will be happy to oblidge after that, I would encourage you to cool down and disengage.

Okay, I will be using you as evidence that Atheist have values. Using Atheist logic of creating own values.
Your pissed, I can tell. You value your opinion (That's a value!)
You value being right
You value fact
You value yourself

Addressing values determines what you believe. Avoiding it is simply missing the whole picture. There's your evidence. Now go home.

Best Regards,

Jake


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GGPViper
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03 Dec 2012, 4:41 pm

NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because values determines what you fight so hard to prove.


This is irrelevant to the relation between value and fact.

NAKnight wrote:
Atheism has a value system, it's lack of belief is only a part of that.


Prove it.

NAKnight wrote:
Addressing the values determines the core reasons why you believe what you do.


Irrelevant.



Okay. I will be happy to oblidge after that, I would encourage you to cool down and disengage.

Okay, I will be using you as evidence that Atheist have values. Using Atheist logic of creating own values.
Your pissed, I can tell. You value your opinion (That's a value!)
You value being right
You value fact
You value yourself

Addressing values determines what you believe. Avoiding it is simply missing the whole picture. There's your evidence. Now go home.

Best Regards,

Jake


Once again, this is irrelevant.

All you have done is to make some claim about my motivations for posting. What does this have to do with the distinction between value and fact and the concept of atheism? :scratch:.



NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:44 pm

GGPViper wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because values determines what you fight so hard to prove.


This is irrelevant to the relation between value and fact.

NAKnight wrote:
Atheism has a value system, it's lack of belief is only a part of that.


Prove it.

NAKnight wrote:
Addressing the values determines the core reasons why you believe what you do.


Irrelevant.



Okay. I will be happy to oblidge after that, I would encourage you to cool down and disengage.

Okay, I will be using you as evidence that Atheist have values. Using Atheist logic of creating own values.
Your pissed, I can tell. You value your opinion (That's a value!)
You value being right
You value fact
You value yourself

Addressing values determines what you believe. Avoiding it is simply missing the whole picture. There's your evidence. Now go home.

Best Regards,

Jake


Once again, this is irrelevant.

All you have done is to make some claim about my motivations for posting. What does this have to do with the distinction between value and fact and the concept of atheism? :scratch:.


Can Atheist define their own values?


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Oodain
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03 Dec 2012, 4:46 pm

there is not a shred of evidence in your post,

all i see are logic loops without context.

i think what people here are trying to argue is that values are inherently subjective and that alck of belief is only one such value,
many values function as distinctly seperate concepts with distinctly seperate reasoning behind them.

not even religion can create a completely common value set, the evidence is in the hundreds of ways religious texts have been interpreted and how that in turn created distinct seperate values from other religions and what personal values a person may have beside them.

now as far as logical fact and values, they cannnot in any way be compared, it is a non sequitur of textbook perfection.

one is hinged around established and often proven methodologies that is independently verifiable the other is a subjective part of personality dependant on personal experience(the most subjective of all).


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