04 May 2013, 5:24 pm
Raptor wrote:
marshall wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
01001011 wrote:
You are totally wrong. Having the will or plan to murder somebody does not always mean there is the appropriate tool to carry out the plan. Moreover not all murder plan are successful.
Murder is routinely committed with bare hands alone, so what's your point?
If I need to drill a hole in something, I reach for a power drill, if I don't have a power drill, I grab a brace and bit, if I don't have that, I chuck a bit in a pin vice, or use a hammer and punch, or use the tip of a knife like a reamer. What I don't do is go "well sh*t, I don't have the optimum tool for this job, I'm just going to give up".
A lot of murders aren't premeditated. Many are a result of a botched robbery, road rage, altercations, etc... Pulling a trigger is a lot easier to do on an impulse than most any other methods of killing. I don't see how anyone can deny this in good faith.
Yes, and by that logic a gun can also be used for a quick DEFENSE against an aggressor.
In the ideal right-wing dystopia a starving child pickpocket is an "aggressor" and deserves to be shot on the spot.
Quote:
Why not stop tap dancing around and take a side, ANY side.. Just because that horrible Raptor likes them doesn't make guns evil. Evil is as evil does.
Why? It's more fun confusing you.
04 May 2013, 6:44 pm
marshall wrote:
Raptor wrote:
marshall wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
01001011 wrote:
You are totally wrong. Having the will or plan to murder somebody does not always mean there is the appropriate tool to carry out the plan. Moreover not all murder plan are successful.
Murder is routinely committed with bare hands alone, so what's your point?
If I need to drill a hole in something, I reach for a power drill, if I don't have a power drill, I grab a brace and bit, if I don't have that, I chuck a bit in a pin vice, or use a hammer and punch, or use the tip of a knife like a reamer. What I don't do is go "well sh*t, I don't have the optimum tool for this job, I'm just going to give up".
A lot of murders aren't premeditated. Many are a result of a botched robbery, road rage, altercations, etc... Pulling a trigger is a lot easier to do on an impulse than most any other methods of killing. I don't see how anyone can deny this in good faith.
Yes, and by that logic a gun can also be used for a quick DEFENSE against an aggressor.
In the ideal right-wing dystopia a starving child pickpocket is an "aggressor" and deserves to be shot on the spot.
Ah, we're having red herring for dinner!
Will it be blackened, grilled, baked, or fried?
marshall wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Why not stop tap dancing around and take a side, ANY side.. Just because that horrible Raptor likes them doesn't make guns evil. Evil is as evil does.
Why? It's more fun confusing you.
No, I figure your default setting is anti-gun though you claim otherwise.
Kinda like someone saying they are a vegan while eating a porterhouse.
That's all I'm gonna say about it....
marshall wrote:
I think if the government came and confiscated everyone's guns to the point where they were incredibly rare to either own either legally or purchase on the black market, homicides would go down some.
The fallacy with that scenario is that the government will never be able to carry that out. They'll get huge piles (hills) of of guns but that will be a comparatively small amount compared to what they couldn't find or the cops and soldiers refused to go after for fear of their own well-being.
So now you've still got mountains guns out there in addition to other weapons, an un-deterred criminal element, and violent crime still goes on as usual against a less well armed and vulnerable citizenry.
04 May 2013, 7:15 pm
Raptor wrote:
marshall wrote:
Raptor wrote:
marshall wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
01001011 wrote:
You are totally wrong. Having the will or plan to murder somebody does not always mean there is the appropriate tool to carry out the plan. Moreover not all murder plan are successful.
Murder is routinely committed with bare hands alone, so what's your point?
If I need to drill a hole in something, I reach for a power drill, if I don't have a power drill, I grab a brace and bit, if I don't have that, I chuck a bit in a pin vice, or use a hammer and punch, or use the tip of a knife like a reamer. What I don't do is go "well sh*t, I don't have the optimum tool for this job, I'm just going to give up".
A lot of murders aren't premeditated. Many are a result of a botched robbery, road rage, altercations, etc... Pulling a trigger is a lot easier to do on an impulse than most any other methods of killing. I don't see how anyone can deny this in good faith.
Yes, and by that logic a gun can also be used for a quick DEFENSE against an aggressor.
In the ideal right-wing dystopia a starving child pickpocket is an "aggressor" and deserves to be shot on the spot.
Ah, we're having red herring for dinner!
Will it be blackened, grilled, baked, or fried?
Blackened, like a conservative Republicans soul. Or should I say lack of soul.
04 May 2013, 7:58 pm
04 May 2013, 8:01 pm
04 May 2013, 8:13 pm
04 May 2013, 8:19 pm
04 May 2013, 8:47 pm
04 May 2013, 8:55 pm
Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
No, I figure your default setting is anti-gun though you claim otherwise.
Kinda like someone saying they are a vegan while eating a porterhouse.
That's all I'm gonna say about it....
Kinda like someone saying they are a vegan while eating a porterhouse.
That's all I'm gonna say about it....
I don't think Marshall really cares much one way or the other, I find it's the partisan Democrats that really embrace the whole "guns r bad" mentality just because being part of Team Blue is a package deal for them. I can think of a number of such people off the top of my head that post here regularly that kind or argue guns halfheartedly with us but don't really seem too enthusiastic about it, I'm sure you can guess who I'm thinking of. Independent progressives or left leaning people might be more likely to go anti-gun, but I don't think it's necessarily their default the way it is for certain US liberals and Europeans generally.
I have a rather black and white or pass/fail view of the anti-gun/pro-gun thing but if Marshall wants to entertain us so be it. These debates cause me no more stress or butt-hurt than playing CoD. Mildly intense but at the same time entertaining.
04 May 2013, 9:08 pm
04 May 2013, 9:53 pm
Raptor wrote:
I have a rather black and white or pass/fail view of the anti-gun/pro-gun thing but if Marshall wants to entertain us so be it. These debates cause me no more stress or butt-hurt than playing CoD. Mildly intense but at the same time entertaining.
Yeah, I know the feeling there, if you know anything about guns, it's really hard to imagine how other people can get them so wrong without the aid of deliberate malice. To be sure, they do get some of that from the shameless anti gun groups and their blatant manipulation of everything from statistics to emotion to the very language used to describe things, but I find it's generally better to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're arguing in good faith. I'm an efficiency guy, if I can do more to shake someone's anti gun beliefs by not verbally punching them in the mouth every time they open it despite the personal satisfaction I might derive from doing so, I'm going to hold back in the name of efficacy. The real strength of our position is that we don't rely on emotional appeals, misleading statistics, and twisted language to make our points, and anything I can personally do to help increase that contrast, I'm going to do. Greater good and all.
That being said, I also don't hesitate to tee off on people who don't extend me the same courtesies, as can be observed elsewhere in this thread.
04 May 2013, 10:01 pm
04 May 2013, 10:34 pm
04 May 2013, 11:33 pm
Dox47 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I have a rather black and white or pass/fail view of the anti-gun/pro-gun thing but if Marshall wants to entertain us so be it. These debates cause me no more stress or butt-hurt than playing CoD. Mildly intense but at the same time entertaining.
Yeah, I know the feeling there, if you know anything about guns, it's really hard to imagine how other people can get them so wrong without the aid of deliberate malice. To be sure, they do get some of that from the shameless anti gun groups and their blatant manipulation of everything from statistics to emotion to the very language used to describe things, but I find it's generally better to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're arguing in good faith. I'm an efficiency guy, if I can do more to shake someone's anti gun beliefs by not verbally punching them in the mouth every time they open it despite the personal satisfaction I might derive from doing so, I'm going to hold back in the name of efficacy. The real strength of our position is that we don't rely on emotional appeals, misleading statistics, and twisted language to make our points, and anything I can personally do to help increase that contrast, I'm going to do. Greater good and all.
That being said, I also don't hesitate to tee off on people who don't extend me the same courtesies, as can be observed elsewhere in this thread.
I won't waste time trying to win someone who's already made their mind up that 2+2=3. I just won't do it.
I see much more value in shooting down their arguments and screechings in front of the undecided and maybe pull them over. Even if I don't succeed I don't see it as much of a loss.
The best persuader is for and anti-gunner/protectionist or the un-decided to find themselves in a situation where they feel the vulnerability of being the victim all the sudden and see the flaw in the anti-gun/protectionist thinking (if you can seriously call it that).
I've known it to happen a few times to people I know and as a range officer. It comes right after their house gets broken into in a "hot" burglary, they get accosted and beat up by a gang of thugs in a dark parking lot, attempted rape, car-jacking, etc.
HUGE change in attitude all the sudden and they are all ears about any meaningful way to prevent that from happening again and they are finished talking or listening to shi+.
In short they want a gun, instruction, and a CCW to go with it and they want everyone they hold dear to do the same.
Last edited by Raptor on 04 May 2013, 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
04 May 2013, 11:34 pm
04 May 2013, 11:40 pm
marshall wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
marshall wrote:
I had a dream a few nights ago that I was a gun-toting Republican walking through a third world slum with a stack of 20s visibly hanging out my back pocket. Out of the corner of my eye I caught a skinny 12 year old approaching me from behind. I waited patiently for him to grab the stack before spinning around and burying a 9mm between his eyes. You should have seen the look on his face. Further down the road I noticed a drunken bum asking me for booze money. The combination of the odd look on his face and the fact that it was getting dark and I couldn't see what he was holding in his hand made me nervous. He took one too many steps towards me so I calmly drew my glock 19 and placed a bullet through his chest. Property rights were defended.
Eh, that sounds like a lot of work. I just superglue a quarter to the sidewalk outside my house and potshot any hobos that come along and try to pick it up; if I put the TV in the right place, I don't even have to take my eyes off of FOX to do it. Sometimes, I replace the quarter with a can of PBR, but only if it's hipster season at the time.
If they happen to step on your property while reaching for the can of PBR the new "stand your ground" self defense laws apply ( thanks to your hard earned NRA membership dollars at work! ). The sidewalk is technically public so you'd have to place the can just inside the the conveniently located hole in the 10 ft high barbed wire fence that encircles your lawn (just to be safe). However, the bodies that lie on your property need to be properly disposed of in a maximum of 24 hours or you will get a citation for violating the neighborhood smell ordinance (my god, those meddling bureaucrats and their silly laws!). However, if you push the body out onto the street then it is no longer your responsibility and the street sweepers will clean it up like they would any other road kill.
Now you're learning.
