Obamacare

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02 Oct 2013, 1:46 am

so let me get this straight- when TP are reaming me and mine out, it is because i'm just a deserving bit of feces, but they are always entirely blameless? am I a bit of feces either way? how nice. :roll: when the TP have me and mine over a barrel, I am supposed to just shut up and take it sans complaint? denying me and mine affordable health care is a form of class warfare upon the working class. for a TP to deny this is just another example of them peeing on my leg then telling me it's only raining.

Kraichgauer
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02 Oct 2013, 1:47 am

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Well, as for Blabby and I practically finishing each other sentences - - great minds think alike.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

More like you bought your opinions at the same store. And like I've pointed out, you and Blabbs here have, on this page alone, equated millions of people with cancer and human waste, the exact thing you both like to accuse your enemies of doing. Is it different when you do it?

Huh? Someone's been seriously miscomprehending our posts.
We never said people with cancer were s**t. No, no, we're saying people wanting to deny health coverage to poor people with cancer due to a pre-existing conditions are s**t. I was pretty certain that was understandable.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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02 Oct 2013, 1:49 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Well, as for Blabby and I practically finishing each other sentences - - great minds think alike.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Huh? Someone's been seriously miscomprehending our posts.
We never said people with cancer were sh**. No, no, we're saying people wanting to deny health coverage to poor people with cancer due to a pre-existing conditions are sh**. I was pretty certain that was understandable.

he is messing with our heads by twisting things around.

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02 Oct 2013, 1:51 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Read it again:

And like I've pointed out, you and Blabbs here have, on this page alone, equated millions of people with cancer and human waste, the exact thing you both like to accuse your enemies of doing.

Blabbs called TP members "a cancer", and then you started in with the sh*t. Again, this is called dehumanization, and it's what hate groups do. Why don't you just call them untermensch and make your feelings completely clear?

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02 Oct 2013, 1:53 am

auntblabby wrote:

he is messing with our heads by twisting things around.

If by "messing with your heads" you mean "trying to get you to see that you're behaving exactly like the people you claim to abhor", than yes, I'm messing with your heads.

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Dox47
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02 Oct 2013, 1:56 am

auntblabby wrote:

when the TP have me and mine over a barrel, I am supposed to just shut up and take it sans complaint? denying me and mine affordable health care is a form of class warfare upon the working class. for a TP to deny this is just another example of them peeing on my leg then telling me it's only raining.

No, what I'm saying is that you're failing to comprehend the motivations of other people, then projecting onto them a set of ideas and motivations that justifies your hatred of them. You're demonizing and dehumanizing people who disagree with you, which makes it easier to hate them, as they're not like you, and therefore undeserving of the respect normally granted to other humans of differing opinion. No one wants anyone to suffer, people just don't want a bad system, but you won't/can't accept that, they have to be *evil* for you.

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02 Oct 2013, 2:12 am

If anything, it's the tea party that has been dehumanizing those in need or the disabled. They have accused people on public assistance as being cheats, or lazy. They don't even care that those in need have children that depend on that public assistance. On the contrary, they callously say "hunger is a great motivator" (which is an actual quote from a politician in Missouri). Just as they callously say those in need should instead of depending on Obamacare, should simply depend on the free market to make corrections for healthcare. Well, the damn free market hasn't done a friggin' thing for the needy, save to make things worse. With that sort of track record, how am I supposed to regard the far right, save as cancer or s**t?
And if members of the tea party actually have other views that aren't hateful and mean spirited regarding those in need who only want to see a doctor and - God forbid - eat, please enlighten me.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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02 Oct 2013, 2:30 am

Dox47 wrote:

they are opposed to me signing on to affordable health care for the first time in ages, and you are saying that is NOT hatred? how is that supposed to be loving towards me? how is that NOT making me suffer? after a CENTURY of conservative blockades of extending affordable health care to the working class, you expect me to believe they are not going to forever be opposed to ANY REAL [non-HSA] reform of our current [pre-ACA] non-system? now I KNOW you consider me stupid. fine, be that way. I know for a fact that their "motivations" are callous to real people. shutting down the government is making millions of people suffer. how is that NOT callous? how is that NOT selfish?

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02 Oct 2013, 2:48 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

If anything, it's the tea party that has been dehumanizing those in need or the disabled.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

So how are you morally fit to condemn them if you do the same damn thing?

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02 Oct 2013, 2:57 am

auntblabby wrote:

It's not about hatred, it's about a differing view of the role of the state and whether or not Obamacare is a good law or not. Just because people think it's a bad law, or even are opposed to universal healthcare generally does not make them hateful, it just means they have a different opinion than you. You don't know their motivations for a fact, you're not them, and it's insulting for you to repeatedly state that you know their inner thoughts and motivations. No one is getting up and saying "you know what, I want to deny people affordable health care", no one thinks like that, it's just a policy difference. Just like you don't know what I think, which isn't, by the way, that you're stupid, I just think you're letting your emotions overrule your humanity on this one, and that's making you lash out in an unpleasant way.

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02 Oct 2013, 3:29 am

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

If anything, it's the tea party that has been dehumanizing those in need or the disabled.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

So how are you morally fit to condemn them if you do the same damn thing?

I'm not allowed to feel outraged about people who dehumanize the most vulnerable? I don't know the innermost feelings and thoughts of Hitler's and Stalin's henchmen, but I'm pretty sure I still hold the moral high ground when I condemn their ugly, hateful philosophies.
And no, I'm not calling the Tea party Nazis or Stalinists - I'm just illustrating my point, just in case you choose to throw that at me.
And Dox, have you yourself ever - EVER - been critical of the tea party for their ugly rhetoric?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

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02 Oct 2013, 3:59 am

Dox47 wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

It's not about hatred, it's about a differing view of the role of the state and whether or not Obamacare is a good law or not. Just because people think it's a bad law, or even are opposed to universal healthcare generally does not make them hateful, it just means they have a different opinion than you. You don't know their motivations for a fact, you're not them, and it's insulting for you to repeatedly state that you know their inner thoughts and motivations. No one is getting up and saying "you know what, I want to deny people affordable health care", no one thinks like that, it's just a policy difference. Just like you don't know what I think, which isn't, by the way, that you're stupid, I just think you're letting your emotions overrule your humanity on this one, and that's making you lash out in an unpleasant way.

well, here's a guy who is opposed to obamacare and he gives the reason he prefers his "Christians only" health ministry...

Quote:

"The part I liked about it was that I wouldn't have to be having some of my premiums spent to take care of someone who wasn't taking care of themself, physically or spiritually, either one," he says.

Basically, he's a prejudiced, bigoted SOB who is not willing to help anyone who is not like him. That seems to be a pretty common attitude among TPers and others who oppose healthcare reform.

source

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02 Oct 2013, 4:13 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

I'm not allowed to feel outraged about people who dehumanize the most vulnerable?

I didn't say you weren't allowed to feel outraged, I've pointed out that you've chosen to dehumanize and demonize people you disagree with, and I've further pointed out why that is such a bad, not to mention, hypocritical, thing to do.

Kraichgauer wrote:

And Dox, have you yourself ever - EVER - been critical of the tea party for their ugly rhetoric?

Probably at some point or another, I don't have a link handy off hand. Not that that matters, this isn't about me, I'm not the one referring to my foes as mindless sub-humans in thrall to some Wall St plot, or too stupid to know what's best for themselves, or simply hateful creature who want to screw over the middle class. That's all you.

Seems about time for my nothing personal reminder, that I'm neither intending nor receiving anything said in these policy deputes as personal attacks, just heated difference of opinion. Thank you.

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Dox47
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02 Oct 2013, 4:16 am

GoonSquad wrote:

well, here's a guy who is opposed to obamacare and he gives the reason he prefers his "Christians only" health ministry...

Quote:

"The part I liked about it was that I wouldn't have to be having some of my premiums spent to take care of someone who wasn't taking care of themself, physically or spiritually, either one," he says.

Basically, he's a prejudiced, bigoted SOB who is not willing to help anyone who is not like him. That seems to be a pretty common attitude among TPers and others who oppose healthcare reform.

source

So one guy, and the opinion of a big government booster that he represents the Tea Party as a whole? Compelling stuff.

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02 Oct 2013, 5:25 am

Dox47 wrote:

So one guy, and the opinion of a big government booster that he represents the Tea Party as a whole? Compelling stuff.

Well, if you liked that...

SOURCE

Quote:

For the GOP, the Tea Party is a mixed bag, according to political scientist Angie Maxwell of the University of Arkansas in a new report issued by the Blair-Rockefeller Poll. Her analysis of poll results shows that while Tea Party members are politically sophisticated and vote at high rates, they are also fiscally and socially more conservative than other Republicans, sometimes dramatically so.

When Maxwell analyzed responses to the poll, conducted in the aftermath of the 2010 elections, she saw significant differences between Tea Party Republicans and other Republicans. Health care was one issue where the gap was particularly big. The large national sample of self-identified Tea Party members available in the Blair-Rockefeller Poll, Maxwell said, “reveals detailed characteristics of this burgeoning and homogenous movement.”
...

For example, 81.3 percent of Tea Party Republicans express concern that reform may lead to health care rationing, compared to 37.4 percent of other Republicans. Similarly, 68.9 percent of Tea Party Republicans and just 32 percent of other Republicans are very concerned about euthanasia of the elderly as a result of health care reform. In general, 77 percent of Tea Party members strongly oppose the recent approach to health care reform, compared to 42.5 percent of their fellow Republicans.
...

Clear and, in some cases, overwhelming majorities of responses indicate that Tea Party Republicans believe that health care reform will lead to socialism, euthanasia, reduced quality of care, and benefits for the undeserving.
...

Maxwell identified race consciousness and divergent views about equality as characteristic of the Tea Party. For example, in a comparison between white Tea Party members and white people who are not part of the Tea Party, Maxwell finds that white Tea Party members are more strongly opposed to federal support of housing, school, job and health care quality for minorities.

From the Blair Center-Clinton School Poll

Quote:

About the Poll

The Blair Center-Clinton School Poll was created by political scientists Todd Shields, Pearl Ford Dowe, Angie Maxwell and Rafael Jimeno of the Diane D. Blair Center of Southern Politics and Society at the University of Arkansas. With over 3,400 respondents, the poll has a national scope as well as ample sampling of such traditionally under-polled groups as African-Americans and Latinos. Additionally, by addressing topics that have been little studied, the poll allows researchers to identify socio-cultural influences on political values throughout the country with an emphasis on the South. The Blair Center partners with the Clinton School of Public Service to produce the Blair Center-Clinton School Poll .

Bottom line is, the Tea Party is all about angry white men doing for angry white men and only for angry white men...

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02 Oct 2013, 6:24 am

Dox47 wrote:

How is your judgment of them any more valid than their judgment of you?

Because they are childish idiots throwing a tantrum that will kill people.

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