Hey Christians, how can you believe in this???

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All of that blather and you still get WWII and the holocaust. Warrior elites are warrior elites first.

I think you misunderstand me. I do not condone the Muslim Brotherhood. I am merely pointing out that the new powers are no better. It is just the difference of who is being attacked. Have you paid any attention to what is going on over there? This is another case of "that guy in power was bad, so let's get rid of him and then ignore the fact that his replacement is just as bad or worse."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/spotlight/freeajstaff/



I am an atheist, and I am harassed for it quite frequently. The vast majority of my family refuses to even speak to me. Huge swaths of the US population do not believe that an atheist is capable of being a moral human being. As for homosexuality, while we have made great strides, there are still plenty of ways they suffer. I most states it is perfectly legal to fire them for no other reason. And how many states is marriage still prohibited (although contested in court)?

And please don't start on the "us poor Christians" nonsense. It is absurd. Is the YEC movement and are the Biblical literalists persecuted? Yes, but for good reasons.

As for extremist Christians, we don't have any as bad as A Qaeda (anymore). But we still have plenty of them. The KKK is still around (and quite prevalent in some areas), the Army of God, The Lambs of Christ, Scott Roeder, Eric Robert Rudolph, Concerned Christians (planning attacks on Israel), Hutaree, The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord, Defensive Action, The Freemen Community, and many of the neo-nazi groups (Aryan Nations, Aryan Republican Army). Just because it is harder to get away with doesn't mean it isn't here. Not to mention the US Christian groups that have been influencing governments in Africa to outlaw homosexuality. And look at Nigeria where the equally prominent Christians and Muslims take turns with the massacres, but both agree that homosexual should spend their lives in prison.




Depending on your local police and court system.



And again, this is not isolated to Muslim countries by any means.



Yes. And now he is gone with few of the Iranian people missing him.



I am not arguing this. I am using the flaws in the US (where many of these problems are illegal yet still persist) as a form of contrast and comparison.



Here you are wrong. If it was the same government, their emnassador would never speak to us, they would never even consider discussions of any sort, and they would cling to their nuclear ambitions and spit in the face of anyone who tried to stop them. The "supreme leader" had difficulty controlling Ahmadinejad, which is part of the reason he lost the support and power of the rest of the big players over there. He is powerful, but not the all powerful dictator you make him out to be.



And the US has plenty of people in prison for practically no reason whatsoever. In some parts of the US you can go to prison for being found not guilty in a court of law and then failing to pay the civil court costs for the case. True, you can't go to prison for speaking out against the government (unless you are in the military, or certain parts of federal employ), but it is like comparing rock throwing to throwing glass bottles.



And prison here in the US is a wonderful spa vacation?



You seem to have misunderstood me. I know that the US supported the green movement. They still portray Iran as a hotbed of evil, no matter who is in power, and they likely will for the foreseeable future. I never called Khameini sweet and innocent, merely that he is not the evil "death to America" or "all Americans must die" monster that you make him out to be. He is not a good person by any means, but he does not advocate terrorism, either.



I know plenty of people who want Christian morality as the only law allowed, and I am certain that you do as well.
For crying out loud, look at those who demand things like creationism, Noah's Ark, and Jesus' teaching to be part of public education. Or believe that prayer should be in our schools. Or that atheists should not be allowed to run for office. Or to outlaw abortion. Or criminalize homosexuality in one way or another. Or make it perfectly legal to discriminate against anyone who is not a Christian. Penalizing anything other than "traditional family values."

Here are a few sites that came up on just the very first page of search results for "Christian influence on government," where these groups are advocating exactly what you claim does not exist.

http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government
https://bible.org/article/american-government-and-christianity
http://www.frc.org/christianinfluence
http://www.lawandliberty.org/founders.htm
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/xian-pol.html

Sonofghandi.

This argument about how "good" or "bad", and to which extent Christians or other groups are persecuted, is useless, we completely disagree. You are comparing small, isolated, groups with huge organisations like Al Qaeda and the Taliban. And if people in the KKK (or any other group) attack people physically they will get arrested and put in prison just like anyone else, they are not approved by the US government, contrary to groups like the Taliban (for example) who actually were the government in Afghanistan. The fact is that the vast majority of Christians are peaceful, and that the groups of Muslims who are extremists are significant, they are not only small isolated groups. Also the actions of extremist Christians (which doesn't actually make sense, if they are extremists they are not living by Chritian values, therefore they are not really Christians), are not near as violent as the actions of extremist Muslims.

And as I said no country is perfect, and the US isn't either (but like I said its a dang good country to live in), if you are looking for perfect laws and a perfect country, I doubt you will find it. But if you think life is better and human rights are respected more in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc, feel free to go live there.

No I am not wrong, the government is still the same as it was when Ahmadinejad was President. I know the Iranian political system very well, and I will repeat this: The people in charge are the Supreme Leader, the Revolutionary Guards (not necessarily in this order, it varies), and many other politicians behind the scenes and on the scene. The President has the ability to speak in public of course, but he doesn't have any actual power to change things. The only power they have is the ability to discuss matters, and try to convince the people who are actually in charge to make some changes, and hopefully Rouhani is good at that, he was a diplomat, and knows how to handle people, he is less antagonist to "the West" than Ahmadinejad. And about Ahmadinejad, he had the support of many among the IRG, that's why he was more powerful (to a point) than other Presidents. But things are still changing slowly in Iran no matter what, because many are well educated in Iran, and the majority want (and protest for) these changes to happen, there is still a long ways to go tho.

Iran, 2009:



A prison is still a prison no matter where it is, but yes US prisons are like a "spa vacation" compared to Iranian prisons. There is no comparison at all. Just ask Ahmad Batebi (among thousands of others), he will tell you how it goes in an Iranian prison.



It is you who are very naive about Khamenei (and the IRG). In Iran people are still encouraged to chant "Death to America" during services (FACT!). On different occasions they are also invited to step on, and burn, the American flag (FACT!). They are very openly antagonist to America (and Israel, and the west in general). The funny thing tho, is that the majority of people don't really want to do this, and some use these chants to advertise their business.

And if you have ever paid attention to the words of our Presidents, you should know that it is not Iran as a whole that is considered "hotbed of evil" but only the Islamic government. And you have no idea whatsoever about what Khamenei does behind the scenes, he is actually an extremist.

Creationist are a whole different group, don't put all Christians in that group please. My brother and sister are Christians and they are not creationists, in fact my brother is very interested in science. And we both know that teaching Creationism in governmental public school will never happen lol, only maybe in some private schools where people pay to send their kids. And what is happening in general is the complete opposite of what you are saying, Christians are not taking over, they used to be in power, most schools were Christian and were teaching Christian values, and everything is being thrown away right now. Some people can't even stand monuments if there is a cross or other Christian icon on it, eventho they are old monuments and should be protected, they are part of our history. Recently an atheist girl managed to get an old prayer written by a ex student at her school to be removed from a wall. And this happens more and more these days. Teachers can't even ask the kids to say a prayer for something or someone (eventho no one is actually forced to pray) or else they get harassed and sometimes even fired. And I don't know what you have against Christian values in general anyway, I am not Christian myself (I don't actually follow any religion), but I think they are pretty good values in general. There is nothing wrong with "thou shall not kill" for example. Also any good Christian will tell you that even if homosexuality is considered a sin (which it is in all religions, or most, as far as I know, including Islam of course), they will certainly not attack you nor harass you for it, if they do so they are automatically not following Jesus' teachings, and they will get arrested. Abortion is a completely different matter, it is a very touchy subject, and I'm not sure whether we should get into this. I don't like abortion, eventho I don't want women to be forced to go through a pregnancy if they don't want to either, but for me its never been a "Christian" matter, its just a matter of respect for life.


P.S.: Your antagonism to Christians and Christian values, while you seem fine with (to the least, very tolerant towards) Islamic governments and Sharia law, is amazing to me.

Actually, it wasn't Germany's "Prussian warrior elites" who had been responsible for WWII (though they did prosecute it), and they certainly weren't responsible for the Holocaust; the blame for those terrible things lay with the civilian fanatics of the Nazi party who had gained control of Germany.

Although this is a very simplistic assessment, for once we agree, I am not sure how much blame should be carried by the general population, certainly not none, however the party members should have been called to account for the actions of the party and their individual roles in it.

Christianity should also bear some blame, antisemitism is one of the core messages in the Gospel of John and the others are not too far behind.

Sure, there is a sad history of Antisemitism in Christianity, though it also must be remembered that among Hitler's severest critics were Lutheran ministers like Martin Niemoller, who spent the greater part of the war in Auschwitz, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who was hanged with piano wire for his part in the Stauffenberg bomb plot. Other Germans who had opposed Hitler had done so out of inspiration by their faith, such as Klaus Von Stauffenberg's Catholicism, and Erwin Rommel's and Wilhelm Canarris' Lutheranism.

^ You cannot really take an issue like this down to an individual level, of course there were people of all faiths who suffered the same fate as the Jews for opposing the policy, undoubtedly there would have been some dyed in the wool fascists who also thought "the final solution" was going too far. That is not my point, christianity though its constant antisemitism helped create the atmosphere of hatred that allowed the Nazis to get away with it. After all this was just the last in a long history of pogroms against the jews hence the phrase "final solution" I would need to check but I suspect the vast majority of the prior european pogroms were of direct Christian cause.

I won't deny Antisemitism remaining in Christianity had contributed to the Holocaust, but so did the rise of nationalism in 19th and 20th century Europe, where Jews were viewed as unassimilated aliens and strangers. It was the latter which the Nazis had in fact played up on.

Speaking of putting Muslim "extremists" (the correct word in this case would actually be "fundamentalists") - and Sharia law - in perspective:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... utcry.html

Thankfully she was freed! I hope her and her family can come here as soon as possible.

Ouch this is getting painful, once again I find myself in agreeance with you

And here we get to the root of my disagreement with you. The Taliban and Al Qaeda are not huge organizations. The Taliban was the government. Al Qaeda has never been huge, comparatively speaking. Remember, there are around
1,800,000,000 Muslims in the world.
35,000 Taliban worldwide (by the most conservative extimate I can find).
10,000 Al Qaeda (by most conservative estimate) with around 200-300 active command members.
30,000-40,000 ISIS/ISIL (although it is assumed that a large portion are fighting for the paycheck and many more out of fear of retribution.

The fact is that the majority of Muslims are peaceful, which is my main point. The majority of Muslims do not agree with the actions of the most extreme (even the leadership of Iran). You are still judging a large group by the actions of a small percentage, despite your claims to the contrary.



It is not that I am attacking Christianit values, it is that Christians (including yourself) seem perfectly ok to attack Muslim values. For someone who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus, you should really work on not throwing stones and try to get that 2X4 out of your eye.

And I do not like the idea of Sharia law any more than the idea of Christian law. I find both equally flawed at a fundamental level in that they encourage the persecution of any who do not share their personal spiritual belief system.

And it is not that I am fine with Islamic governments (although some are perfectly tolerant of others), it is that you are painting all Islamic figures in governments as entirely evil and have made some great caricature of them as all identical carbon copies of the most violent and extreme Muslims in the world. It is your stereotyping that I have an issue with. Are some of them terrible? yes. But that does not mean that they all are proponents of violence, indiscriminant imprisonment, and execution of people just for being Christian.

Hate breeds hate. That is the biggest problem in the Middle East. Let's stop importing hatred wholesale into the US.

Last edited by sonofghandi on 24 Jun 2014, 6:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

You again use one single example to justify your stereotyping of 1/4 of the world population.

And if you want to argue semantics where does that leave thjose who self identify as Christian fundamentalists?

How about some laws based on Christian values? In 34 states it is legal to fire someone solely for being transgender. In 29 states it is legal to fire someone solely for being being gay.

Why are you surprised? We're both commie liberals!

No I am not, it is you who are completely twisting and misunderstanding my statements, either that or you are skipping some parts of my messages. I already said, for example, that during the Qur'an burning incident, it was not ALL Iraqis who attacked them, but a few thousands, and that moderate Muslims were also killed during this attack (or did you completely missed this?????). What I DID say tho, is that "a few thousands" was still a significant number, not that it was the majority of Muslims!! I can pretty much guarantee that if you decided to grab a few Bibles, stood in a public place somewhere in the U.S., and burned these Bibles, some Christians might be upset about it, but there certainly won't be "a few thousand" people who will attack you and try to murder you for it.





Yes you are definitely attacking Christian values, while defending Muslim values and Sharia law. The US is a secular country, which was built for the most part upon Christian values, yet you criticize any signs that are left of these Christian values, eventho people here are completely free to practice any religion they want (including no religion at all), and we all have the same human rights in this country. On the other hand you are standing up for countries where their laws are completely based on religion, and it seems all fine with you (oh yes, you said they were "equally" flawed ... ). And what the heck do you have against Christian values anyway (apart from homosexuality being considered a sin, which is the exact same thing in other religions, including Islam - myself I don't have anything against gay people or gay couple getting married). Please go live in Iraq, Afghanistan, or similar countries, and go ahead and criticize their laws, customs, or religion, the same way you criticize the U.S. laws and customs, see what happens, don't take my word for it, just experience it yourself.

And here is another proof that you either don't understand my posts well, or you skip some parts: I said "I am not Christian myself (I don't actually follow any religion)", yet you call me a Christian, you obviously skipped that part. And I will tell you this again: Under Sharia law, among other things, stoning is legal, public flogging is legal, cutting limbs is legal (when someone is caught stealing), and women are considered 2nd class citizens (in many ways), how in the world could you expect me to be ok with any of this??? One of my best friends is a Muslim (who was born in Iran), and even he disagrees with Sharia law!! !! Even he would tell you Sharia is not fair to women!! !! He also disagrees with public hanging and flogging (and with hanging and flogging alltogether), which is something that is still happening in Iran (among other countries). If he was here right now he would be telling you the exact same things I am telling you!! ! Heck eventho he is a Muslim who practices his religion, he even told me himself that Muhammad was not perfect and that he was a warrior. Gawd you are naive about Islamic governments and laws. Why do you think there was millions of people (and the majority of them are Muslims!! !) in the streets of Iran protesting against their government??????????????

And quit twisting my statements, I DO NOT HATE MUSLIMS!! !! !! !!, , I know that many are peaceful, I also know many Muslims!! ! and I already told you that one of my best friends is a Muslim!! ! what I don't like are extremists Muslims and Islamic governments. How you can be here telling me how terrible US laws are, eventho what they are based on for the most part is actually human rights (read our Constitution!! !!), definitely not the laws in the Bible or we would still stone people, while approving (or being very tolerant towards) Islamic government, where everything, including their laws, is based on religion, is amazing to me.

And this is what you absolutely don't get, I'm not "stereotyping" anything, there is many cases like this one (and Shadi Sadr could tell you something about it, she constantly fights in Court to save women from prison, hanging, and stoning!! !! !!): IT IS NOT ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE, IT IS THE LAW OF THIS COUNTRY, IS IT SHARIA LAW!! !! !!

I have posted numerous cases similar to this, including so-called honour killings, on Twitter (and other networks) for over a year, there is different cases EVERY SINGLE DAY!! !

In the U.S. if someone gets fired because they are gay or transgender (or anything else), they can go to Court and sue their employer because it is not legal to do so ... in most Muslim countries the gay person will be put in prison simply for being gay!! !! (and many are even murdered!! !). In Iran (among other countries) it is even illegal for a man to dress as a woman, and a man will go to prison if he does so!! !! ! Good Lord, how can you think our laws are "equally" flawed. Both flawed yes I agree (I don't know of any country that has perfect laws), but "equally" flawed? no, not even close.

And f**** you about the Christian values, they won't stone you, they won't cut your limbs, they won't flog you, and they don't consider you a less valuable witness because you are a woman, nor will they give your inheritance to your husband or brothers just because they are men. Just go live under Sharia law and experience the difference.

And it is NOT legal anywhere in the States to fire someone for being gay or transgender (or anything else), unless of course you hired the person thinking you were hiring a woman or a man and the person turns out to be of the opposite sex, in which case it would mean the person lied about his/her gender.

LGBT rights map:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_right ... the_UN.svg

Anyway, I'm done talking to you.

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