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Dox47
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14 Mar 2015, 8:20 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Dox47,

It is not the end of the story.


Legally, it is, since the law doesn't particularly care about your feelings.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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14 Mar 2015, 8:26 pm

Dox47 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Dox47,

It is not the end of the story.


Legally, it is, since the law doesn't particularly care about your feelings.

The law might care about pledges and charters. Making a pledge and honoring it. You are just going by what is in the media but how do you know the entire story?



GoonSquad
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14 Mar 2015, 8:38 pm

Just because we live in an age of moronic simplicity and the current SC might rule this speech as protected doesn't make it constitutional, except in the most technical sense.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ch/387718/

Quote:
The way we interpret the First Amendment need not be simplistic and empty of nuance, and was not always so. The Supreme Court unanimously held over eighty years ago that “those words which by their very utterance inflict injury … are no essential part of any exposition of ideas.” And in 1952 the Court upheld an Illinois statute punishing “false or malicious defamation of racial and religious groups.” These rulings, while never officially reversed, have shrunk to historical trinkets. But they mark a range of the possible, where one can be a staunch defender of full-throated discourse but still recognize the difference between dialogue and vomitus.

When frat boys delight in singing about lynching in Oklahoma, or loop a noose around the statue of James Meredith at Ole Miss, or publish a “rape guide” at Dartmouth, the First Amendment tells us our remedy to these expressions of hatred is to grimace and bear it. Or ignore it. Or speak out against it. But punish it we cannot. That would go too far; we would slide down the slippery slope to tyranny.

Those not targeted by the speech can sit back and recite how distasteful such racism or sexism is, and isn’t it too bad so little can be done. Meanwhile, those targeted by the speech are forced to speak out, yet again, to reassert their right to be treated equally, to be free to learn or work or live in an environment that does not threaten them with violence. The First Amendment’s reliance on counterspeech as remedy forces the most marginalized among us to bear the costs of the bigots’ speech. Counterspeech is exhausting and distracting, but if you are the target of hatred you have little choice. “Speak up! Remind us why you should not be lynched.” “Speak up! Remind us why you should not be raped.” You can stay silent, but that internalizes the taunt. The First Amendment tells us the government cannot force us either to remain silent or to speak, but its reliance on counterspeech effectively forces that very choice onto victims of hate speech.


Just how asinine and simple-minded has America become?

Anybody who can seriously support these hateful little frat boys on any grounds is truly beneath contempt.


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Dox47
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14 Mar 2015, 9:06 pm

Apparently being principled invites contemp, but given the source, I'll take it as a badge of honor.


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GoonSquad
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14 Mar 2015, 9:24 pm

Using alleged 'principles' as an excuse not to think critically is what invites contempt. :roll:


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14 Mar 2015, 9:33 pm

HOW can you honestly say that is principled if you have read what the SAE website says? They are acting against what the charter says SAE is all about. The True Gentleman Experience is a central part of pledging Sigma Alpha Epsilon. Lying about what the fraternity represents and their mission is fairly unprincipled and to pass that on to younger members of the fraternity...can't you see the deceit? Teach those kids to honor what they signed up for by actually BEING True Gentlemen in their hearts, otherwise go home. For the record I am a Caucasian so don't think I am a black man with hurt feelings or black at all for that matter, but I can see the problem regardless of my race. It comes down to one simple question. Does the fraternity have the right to enforce it's charter pledge or not? If you are going to go ahead and say it has no authority then don't have a fraternity and that's what we have now because you have to recognize something outside yourself when you take a pledge. You cannot just do whatever you want when you have committed to the True Gentleman Experience. You must honor that commitment or go home. Otherwise there's no point to any pledge.

The alumni appear to be teaching students there isn't any honor. It's just a matter of doing whatever you want regardless of any commitment you have made. Just do what you want, it's in the constitution so what you have declared you will do means nothing because we can just forget it, it won't hold up in court. Where is the honor?



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14 Mar 2015, 10:40 pm

...and the story continues!
Click!

According to Noah Feldman, a Bloomberg View columnist, and professor of constitutional and international law at Harvard:

Quote:
Applying ordinary free-speech doctrine, the expulsion looks unconstitutional, as professor Eugene Volokh has pointed out. Racist speech is still protected speech under the First Amendment, no matter how repulsive. The fraternity can be banned for race discrimination, which is prohibited conduct. Speaking in favor of discrimination, however, is generally protected.

But Boren's explanation for the expulsion rests on a different theory. He said specifically that the students were being expelled for their "leadership role in leading a racist and exclusionary chant, which has created a hostile educational environment for others."

...

The law doesn't ban speech; it bans the act of discriminating. And when laws are aimed at conduct that incidentally burdens speech, the courts don't subject them to the same strict scrutiny they apply to laws directed primarily at speech.

That's what's going on in Oklahoma. The university is enforcing the legal requirement of a nonhostile educational environment by barring racially hostile conduct. This conduct came in the form of speech — but it can still be prohibited because it was speech only incidentally.

It's a tricky question whether speech not directed at anyone in particular should be treated as conduct creating a hostile environment. The Education Department says that "the acts may be directed at anyone" and still count. On the balance of the facts in Oklahoma, it seems plausible that the conduct would create a hostile environment even without being targeted at particular black students. This was not just a speech in favor of racism. The chant was trying to create an atmosphere of racial exclusion in the fraternity and hence on the campus.

In this case, the prevailing legal logic is good, because it enables (or even requires) the university to maintain standards of civility that are necessary for an educational community.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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14 Mar 2015, 10:46 pm

Duh. That is what I have been saying all along. It isn't about speech. It's about discrimination and if that building belongs to the university, they can shut it down if they have a University Residential Housing policy banning discrimination based on race. It would be the same as one of their instructors announcing he won't give anyone in the class with brown skin a grade above C. Same sort of thing. He could be fired for that despite all this free speech hype.



Dox47
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14 Mar 2015, 10:52 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Using alleged 'principles' as an excuse not to think critically is what invites contempt. :roll:


So, you're the one yelling "burn the heretics!" while I'm saying "maybe that would set a bad precedent..." (and be illegal to boot), and I'm the one failing to think critically? Do we need to add critical thinking to the (long) list of things you like to opine on without any actual understanding of? Speaking of which, did you actually put quotes around a principle that amounts to "I may disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it", one of the most commonly recognized and respected principles out there?

Also, your more recent post was actually addressed by Volokh already; I posted his entire article, so you don't have an excuse not to read it.


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GoonSquad
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14 Mar 2015, 11:13 pm

Dox47 wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
Using alleged 'principles' as an excuse not to think critically is what invites contempt. :roll:


So, you're the one yelling "burn the heretics!" while I'm saying "maybe that would set a bad precedent..." (and be illegal to boot), and I'm the one failing to think critically? Do we need to add critical thinking to the (long) list of things you like to opine on without any actual understanding of? Speaking of which, did you actually put quotes around a principle that amounts to "I may disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it", one of the most commonly recognized and respected principles out there?

Also, your more recent post was actually addressed by Volokh already; I posted his entire article, so you don't have an excuse not to read it.


Yes, I did put quotes around that bit. And, if you think that 'principle' should apply to drunk children spewing obscenities for the sake of spewing obscenities, I'd say there's plenty you don't understand either.

...but then bible, bill of rights, or constitution, a fundie is a fundie is a fundie.

PS

Taking something like the 1st amendment and applying it to such an extreme case actually sets a much worse precedent. It doesn't preserve free speech, it simply undermines and debases the law by using it in such a silly and inappropriate manner.


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Last edited by GoonSquad on 14 Mar 2015, 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LoveNotHate
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14 Mar 2015, 11:24 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
...and the story continues!


Here is a better link .. your link wanted me to register to see it
http://www.wacotrib.com/opinion/columns ... 6d38d.html

1. Dox's prior post already addressed that "creating a hostile environment" is not a 1st amendment exception.

1st amendment exceptions: "Speech that involves incitement, false statements of fact, obscenity, child pornography, threats, and speech owned by others are all completely exempt from First Amendment protections".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... exceptions

The University exists to create hostile environments. Take a philosophy or law class, or spend 48 hours straight studying for exams.

2. One kid is 19 years old and his speech cannot be discriminatory, because he has no power to affect discrimination. He was just some idiot kid new to the fraternity talking trash. Without the power to affect discrimination, then it's just the kid's opinion.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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14 Mar 2015, 11:27 pm

Not "burn the heretics" just suspend the fraternity for a couple of years - something like that doesn't sound out of the question when you look at what the football team goes through just for violating recruitment rules. NCAA puts them through hell.

Things have gone downhill considerably since I lived in Walker Tower. For one thing, men and women lived on the same floor and there were blacks, whites, Asians all on the same floor and things went pretty smoothly except for loud stereo systems and just general loudness. Most of them were loud but they were respectful of one another except for the noise levels.

Now men and women cannot even be trusted to live on the same floors, they alternate floors so women occupy one, then men, then women and on and on. The biggest problem is people have forgotten what respect means.



Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 14 Mar 2015, 11:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GoonSquad
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14 Mar 2015, 11:38 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
...and the story continues!


Here is a better link .. your link wanted me to register to see it
http://www.wacotrib.com/opinion/columns ... 6d38d.html

1. Dox's prior post already addressed that "creating a hostile environment" is not a 1st amendment exception.

1st amendment exceptions: "Speech that involves incitement, false statements of fact, obscenity, child pornography, threats, and speech owned by others are all completely exempt from First Amendment protections".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... exceptions

The University exists to create hostile environments. Take a philosophy or law class, or spend 48 hours straight studying for exams.

2. One kid is 19 years old and his speech cannot be discriminatory, because he has no power to affect discrimination. He was just some idiot kid new to the fraternity talking trash. Without the power to affect discrimination, then it's just the kid's opinion.

But this is not a speech issue. Speech is incidental. The issue is creating a situation that is BOTH hostile and obscene and therefore a violation of the student code of conduct.

This is NOT A SPEECH ISSUE. IT IS A BEHAVIOR ISSUE.

And even if it is a speech issue, as demonstrated in the Atlantic article I posted, the SC has ruled against this sort of speech in the past.

:roll:

PS

If the word n****r isn't obscene somebody needs to tell Alex so he can fix his filter! :lol:


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Dox47
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15 Mar 2015, 12:23 am

GoonSquad wrote:
And even if it is a speech issue, as demonstrated in the Atlantic article I posted, the SC has ruled against this sort of speech in the past.


Which is illegal, as there is no First Amendment exception for offensive speech. This isn't rocket science.


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15 Mar 2015, 12:31 am

Dox47 wrote:

Which is illegal, as there is no First Amendment exception for offensive speech. This isn't rocket science.

So what you think we should all do is shrug our shoulders at this bigotry on campus and it's blatant bigotry, not even subtle, as in, no black brothers in Sigma Alpha Epsilon's OU chapter, but in your face, I am not signing you because of your race and you can go die bigotry. Yes that is what it is. Call it what it is. I am so tired of people not having the courage to face what is a fact before their eyes and to call a spade a spade. It is discrimination and it is bigotry. Otherwise show me a black man in that fraternity.

If you are going to go around spouting bigoted statements AT LEAST HAVE THE COURAGE TO SAY YOU KNOW WHAT, I AM A BIGOT!! !! Show what you are and let people take it from there. Right now what we have are people who feel bigotry in their hearts but they are trying to hide it and say what it is is merely hate speech. What it truly is is bigotry plain and simple.



Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 15 Mar 2015, 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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15 Mar 2015, 12:32 am

GoonSquad wrote:
Yes, I did put quotes around that bit. And, if you think that 'principle' should apply to drunk children spewing obscenities for the sake of spewing obscenities, I'd say there's plenty you don't understand either.


I rest my case that you don't understand the meaning of the word principle.

GoonSquad wrote:
...but then bible, bill of rights, or constitution, a fundie is a fundie is a fundie.


And now you're trying to equate religious fundamentalism with respect for the bill of rights? That's not a very smart comparison, to say the least.

GoonSquad wrote:
PS

Taking something like the 1st amendment and applying it to such an extreme case actually sets a much worse precedent. It doesn't preserve free speech, it simply undermines and debases the law by using it in such a silly and inappropriate manner.


It's exactly such cases that the law is designed to protect, which is yet another point against your knowing anything about Constitutional law and its application. I'd say shut up before you embarrass yourself, but it's a little past that point now.


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