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Why can't a BLM member be pro-Trump?

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Jiheisho
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26 Sep 2020, 11:10 am

emotrtkey wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
Of course, they don't mentioned the reason black people are tried by all white juries is because black people don't show up for jury duty. If it really were a big problem in the black community, they could easily solve it by showing up for jury duty when they're needed. Of course, it's easier to blame white people for "systemic racism".


Can you cite the source for that? As far as I know, you can't just not turn up for jury duty, you need to be excused. But anyway, a citation would be good supporting that claim.


I don't save sources for everything I researched but I'm sure you can find it online with a simple search. Although it's required, many places choose not to prosecute anyone who refuses.


Sorry, I did not find any evidence supporting your position. I did find racial bias in jury selection though:

RACIAL REPRESENTATIVENESS OF JURIES: AN ANALYSIS OF SOURCE LIST AND ADMINISTRATIVE EFFECTS ON THE JURY POOL

Lack of Jury Diversity: A National Problem with Individual Consequences

The truth about the US jury system

A black man went to jail for missing jury duty. After public outrage, the judge cleared his record.



ironpony
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26 Sep 2020, 12:19 pm

Well if non-white people do not want to become jurors, could the court give them court orders, to legally force them to be in order to make trials more fair, or would that just cause more problems than solutions?



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26 Sep 2020, 12:39 pm

In my state, jurors get paid $25 for a day's work.

However, parking can be $5-$10.

So, you make US $15-$20 for 10 hours of work, as it's a long drive, and you need to be there early.


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ironpony
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26 Sep 2020, 12:43 pm

Oh okay, but if jury duty is the same for white and black people, and they both have to miss work, don't get paid enough, and are under court orders, why do white people still do it compared to black though, if the reasons are the same for both?



Jiheisho
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26 Sep 2020, 12:54 pm

ironpony wrote:
Well if non-white people do not want to become jurors, could the court give them court orders, to legally force them to be in order to make trials more fair, or would that just cause more problems than solutions?


Jury selection is a defacto court order--you need to turn up or be granted an excuse. The problem is how jury roles are assigned.



Jiheisho
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26 Sep 2020, 12:55 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, but if jury duty is the same for white and black people, and they both have to miss work, don't get paid enough, and are under court orders, why do white people still do it compared to black though, if the reasons are the same for both?


Because white people are more often selected. It is a selection bias.



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26 Sep 2020, 1:01 pm

Oh okay, but they say that 98% of people charged with crime, decide not to go to trial and plea bargain. So is this jury issue that much of an issue, if it only applies to 2% or is 2% still important of course?



Jiheisho
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26 Sep 2020, 1:13 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay, but they say that 98% of people charged with crime, decide not to go to trial and plea bargain. So is this jury issue that much of an issue, if it only applies to 2% or is 2% still important of course?


And if you are more likely to be charged because you are Black and police are more likely to use coercion because you are Black, then you are more likely to see more plea bargains. The question is how fair is the criminal justice system?

How fair is the Canadian criminal justice system to native people in Canada?



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26 Sep 2020, 2:45 pm

Oh okay. Well it seems that no one likes the idea of plea bargaining, so would the system be better if they didn't have it and you had to go trial, and therefore, do not have to face the added pressure of plea bargaining?



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26 Sep 2020, 2:57 pm

ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. Well it seems that no one likes the idea of plea bargaining, so would the system be better if they didn't have it and you had to go trial, and therefore, do not have to face the added pressure of plea bargaining?


Cops and guilty suspects both like plea bargains, since it saves both of them money and effort.


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26 Sep 2020, 3:01 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
How fair is the Canadian criminal justice system to native people in Canada?


There's issues at all levels, just like in the US.

https://idlenomore.ca/
https://www.mmiwg-ffada.ca/
https://www.mmiwg-ffada.ca/wp-content/u ... nocide.pdf

The issues related to missing and murdered indigenous women in Canada is only one aspect but it's the one that's easiest to research in depth.


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26 Sep 2020, 3:04 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. Well it seems that no one likes the idea of plea bargaining, so would the system be better if they didn't have it and you had to go trial, and therefore, do not have to face the added pressure of plea bargaining?


Cops and guilty suspects both like plea bargains, since it saves both of them money and effort.


Yeah but why do a lot of people complain that plea bargaining is a real problem for suspects though, if they would rather take that then a trial?



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26 Sep 2020, 3:30 pm

ironpony wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. Well it seems that no one likes the idea of plea bargaining, so would the system be better if they didn't have it and you had to go trial, and therefore, do not have to face the added pressure of plea bargaining?


Cops and guilty suspects both like plea bargains, since it saves both of them money and effort.


Yeah but why do a lot of people complain that plea bargaining is a real problem for suspects though, if they would rather take that then a trial?



Because not all of them are actually guilty. It benefits actually guilty ones but it harms suspects who aren't guilty in two ways:

If you can't afford good legal representation your overworked public defender will likely council you to take a plea deal if they don't believe they will be able to make an effective case on your behalf.

If you're someone who's grown up with the mindset of stop snitchin' and you're wrongly accused but know enough that defending yourself will lead to the arrest and conviction of someone else because your defence will be the evidence against them you will likely choose to not be a snitch (whether out of moral conviction or fear of turning up dead or both).

These will likely multiply, meaning people for whom both are true are very likely to end up taking a plea bargain or otherwise accepting a wrongful conviction.


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26 Sep 2020, 4:43 pm

Yeah that makes sense. What if the courts didn't have plea bargains and you had to go trial though and that was your only choice? Would that be better?



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28 Sep 2020, 2:55 pm

ironpony wrote:
Yeah that makes sense. What if the courts didn't have plea bargains and you had to go trial though and that was your only choice? Would that be better?


It's hard to say. I know when I had to deal with a criminal charge I would have been forced to plead guilty despite being innocent if it wasn't for my parents being willing to help out. The sad thing is, both outcomes had similar financial burdens, but because you're not actually given free council unless prison time is an outcome (in Canada) it basically is a trap because if you can't afford to defend yourself you will be forced to cooperate with being railroaded.

Interestingly I learned that Canada has multiple options for 'pleading down' a first-time impaired operation charge if alcohol was the causative substance, but not if any other substance was indicated. Also, failing a sobriety test is grounds even if no substances are note, but further that even when substances are found that by itself doesn't indicate intoxication. So basically a sketchy weirdo who struggles to understand instructions can be charged with impaired with no actual evidence, just for the lulz? The judge suggested an acquittal before my lawyer was done going through the Crown's 'evidence'.


Unrelated to that, you might appreciate this story regarding Breonna Taylor's killing since it refutes points that some anti-BLM posters have been claiming as gospel truth for weeks now:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/v7gw ... in-the-leg


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
If you feel useless, just remember the USA took four presidents, thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and 20 years to replace the Taliban with the Taliban.


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28 Sep 2020, 3:57 pm

I love it! Trump claimed ( for his taxes) that he spent $70,000 on his hair last year! His tax returns also showed that he is really bad at business and paid only $750 taxes because of all his losses!


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