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Trump's various attempts to challenge election results

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Tempus Fugit
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04 Dec 2020, 7:30 pm

Never heard of 'Lead Stories' before. It's amazing how many news outlets there are out there. With such a vast array person is bound to find one that says what they want to hear.



Mona Pereth
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04 Dec 2020, 9:50 pm

Tempus Fugit wrote:
Never heard of 'Lead Stories' before.

Hopefully you HAVE heard of Forbes, Fox News, and PolitiFact, have you not?

Those sources, with varying points of view, all seem to regard the Lead Stories article as reliable, as well as providing their own additional details. Lead Stories is a fact-checking site that has apparently been around since 2015.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 04 Dec 2020, 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Redd_Kross
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04 Dec 2020, 9:53 pm

Tempus Fugit wrote:
Never heard of 'Lead Stories' before. It's amazing how many news outlets there are out there. With such a vast array person is bound to find one that says what they want to hear.


That is true of the original footage as well, it only takes one person to twist the meaning of the film with some misleading dialogue, and those seeking justification for their own predetermined views will jump on it as "fact".

I'm all for cynicism but let's be equally cynical in all directions here.



Tempus Fugit
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04 Dec 2020, 10:15 pm

Redd_Kross wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Never heard of 'Lead Stories' before. It's amazing how many news outlets there are out there. With such a vast array person is bound to find one that says what they want to hear.


That is true of the original footage as well, it only takes one person to twist the meaning of the film with some misleading dialogue, and those seeking justification for their own predetermined views will jump on it as "fact".

I'm all for cynicism but let's be equally cynical in all directions here.


What media source produced the original footage?



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04 Dec 2020, 10:17 pm

Not everything that is prefixed with "fact check" is kosher.

Checking the leadstories link since it seems to be the basis for the other two.

Quote:
The media and party observers were never told to leave because counting was over for the night, but they apparently followed workers who left once their job of opening envelopes was completed, the chief investigator for the secretary of state told Lead Stories. The observers were free to return at anytime, she said. Georgia law allows observers, but does not require them to be there for ballots to be counted, she said.

There was never an announcement made to the media and other observers about the counting being over for the night and them needing to leave, according to Watson, who was provided information by the media liaison, who was present. She said they just followed the "cutters" as they left.


Sounds plausible... but...

"Later in the night, Regina Waller, the Fulton County public affairs manager for elections, told ABC News that the election department sent the State Farm Arena absentee ballot counters home at 10:30 p.m. despite earlier intentions to complete processing Tuesday night. Some additional numbers could still come out Tuesday night, but as of now the staff will be back at 8:30 a.m. Wednesday."

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pipe-bu ... d=73981348

https://www.11alive.com/article/news/po ... c5602d6aff (https://archive.vn/AZxIq for EU)

"Fulton officials said their goal was to have 100,000 absentee plus drop-off ballots counted by the end of election night. Officials sent ballot counters home at 10:30 p.m. and said they'd return at 8:30 a.m. Wednesday."

https://twitter.com/SteveGWSB/status/13 ... 2207982592

"35,000 absentee ballots left to process today and another 25,000 already scanned yet to be tabulated/added to final vote in Fulton County. Chairman not happy workers sent home last night and didn’t keep working around the clock"

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/politics/liv ... V2QZKPCJU/

https://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta-news/f ... GJBNBSVJY/ (https://archive.is/arJ1N for EU)

"They planned to stop scanning absentee ballots at 10:30 p.m. and pick it up back in the morning. No official could explain before press time why Fulton was stopping its count of absentee ballots at that time, only saying that was the procedure."

“As planned, Fulton County will continue to tabulate the remainder of absentee ballots over the next two days. Absentee ballot processing requires that each ballot is opened, signatures verified, and ballots scanned. This is a labor-intensive process that takes longer to tabulate than other forms of voting. Fulton County did not anticipate having all absentee ballots processed on Election Day,” the county spokeswoman wrote in a statement."

https://www.13wmaz.com/article/news/pol ... c5602d6aff (https://archive.vn/gvZql for EU)

"Fulton officials said their goal was to have 100,000 absentee plus drop-off ballots counted by the end of election night. Officials sent ballot counters home at 10:30 p.m. and said they'd return at 8:30 a.m. Wednesday.

The remaining ballots would be counted by Friday or Saturday, though most could be done by Wednesday.

https://www.mdjonline.com/neighbor_news ... 6473d.html (https://archive.vn/Gr2T3 for EU)

"Elections board member Mark Wingate told reporters he believes the county won’t have definitive results until later this week. Fulton County Director of Registration and Elections Richard Barron said they will stop counting absentee ballots at 10:30 p.m. Nov. 3, and resume in the morning. "

So it was announced in the media and more than once it's said the counters are going home, or counting is stopping.

Thanks to thedonald for that collection.

And this nonsense:

Quote:
Contrary to the claim, the ballots were not in suitcases, she said. The black boxes and bins seen in the video are the standard container used for the ballot counting process.


At least three times they focus on the "suitcase" thing. They are trying to paint it as the cornerstone of the argument, when it's the odd position of the ballots and the timing of their counting that is important. This is classic misdirection. Use your head.


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Last edited by Mikah on 04 Dec 2020, 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Redd_Kross
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04 Dec 2020, 10:21 pm

Tempus Fugit wrote:
Redd_Kross wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Never heard of 'Lead Stories' before. It's amazing how many news outlets there are out there. With such a vast array person is bound to find one that says what they want to hear.


That is true of the original footage as well, it only takes one person to twist the meaning of the film with some misleading dialogue, and those seeking justification for their own predetermined views will jump on it as "fact".

I'm all for cynicism but let's be equally cynical in all directions here.


What media source produced the original footage?


The narrator "framing" the footage is Jackie Pick, an attorney for Trump.

So no risk of bias there, then :roll:

As for which media outlet released this first, no idea, but that wasn't the point I was making.

It's very easy to twist the meaning of footage by saying something fake over the top.

Hence TV shows like "The Staggering Stories of Ferdinand de Bargos" or "Badly Dubbed Porn".

Sky News Australia got a mention but I don't know if they were first. Also an outlet well-known for their political slant.



Last edited by Redd_Kross on 04 Dec 2020, 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tempus Fugit
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04 Dec 2020, 10:26 pm

Redd_Kross wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Redd_Kross wrote:
Tempus Fugit wrote:
Never heard of 'Lead Stories' before. It's amazing how many news outlets there are out there. With such a vast array person is bound to find one that says what they want to hear.


That is true of the original footage as well, it only takes one person to twist the meaning of the film with some misleading dialogue, and those seeking justification for their own predetermined views will jump on it as "fact".

I'm all for cynicism but let's be equally cynical in all directions here.


What media source produced the original footage?


The narration "framing" the footage is Jackie Pick, an attorney for Trump.

So no risk of bias there, then :roll:


If a media source didn't produce the footage, then your comment that the same is true it as well as Lead Stories doesn't follow.

And why would one expect a lawyer representing a plaintiff to not be biased towards their client?



Redd_Kross
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04 Dec 2020, 10:32 pm

Tempus Fugit wrote:
If a media source didn't produce the footage, then your comment that the same is true it as well as Lead Stories doesn't follow.

And why would one expect a lawyer representing a plaintiff to not be biased towards their client?


The point is, what she says the film shows is not necessarily what it actually shows.

It is allegation / speculation at this stage, not fact.



Tempus Fugit
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04 Dec 2020, 10:41 pm

Why use a false equivalency to make a point?

All allegations presented by an attorney are alleged, until a verdict has been rendered.



Mona Pereth
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04 Dec 2020, 11:28 pm

Mikah wrote:
"Later in the night, Regina Waller, the Fulton County public affairs manager for elections, told ABC News that the election department sent the State Farm Arena absentee ballot counters home at 10:30 p.m. despite earlier intentions to complete processing Tuesday night. Some additional numbers could still come out Tuesday night, but as of now the staff will be back at 8:30 a.m. Wednesday."

It remains to be seen how this apparent contradiction (regarding the timing) gets resolved, but my guess is that the above-quoted ABC news reporter may have gotten the "counters" (who stayed later) mixed up with the "cutters" (the ones who did leave at around 10:30 PM, according to Lead Stories).

Reporters often get mixed up on details of this sort. Whenever I've had occasion to see a news report on anything I've been involved in, there were always inaccuracies.

To me it seems prima facie unlikely that there would have been any significant amount of fraud. You evidently feel otherwise. We shall see.


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Tempus Fugit
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04 Dec 2020, 11:35 pm

There's been a few times I've read someone saying there wasn't a significant amount of fraud.
In other words there was fraud, but supposedly not enough to make a difference.



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04 Dec 2020, 11:46 pm

I don't think anyone's denied fraud, just pointed out how vanishingly insignificant it is over a range of several elections - and that the built-in checks make it very easy to spot.


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05 Dec 2020, 12:19 am

Cornflake wrote:
I don't think anyone's denied fraud, just pointed out how vanishingly insignificant it is over a range of several elections - and that the built-in checks make it very easy to spot.


THIS.

1200 instances of voter fraud found, total, in the last 20 years. Even if it all happened in the same year, that's not enough to swing a single district. Even then, it's usually "I didn't know I couldn't vote" or "I was trying to get my sister's husband elected to city council" - not a grand conspiracy to swing a presidential election.

Does voter fraud happen? Sure. RARELY. And they CATCH it. Because it's EASY to catch. Here's why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kmXpMhZqOg

Tempus Fugit wrote:
It's amazing how many news outlets there are out there. With such a vast array person is bound to find one that says what they want to hear.


It's also amazing when people invoke this when sources disagree with them, but conveniently forget it again when it comes to sources that agree with them.



Tempus Fugit
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05 Dec 2020, 12:27 am

Cornflake wrote:
I don't think anyone's denied fraud, just pointed out how vanishingly insignificant it is over a range of several elections - and that the built-in checks make it very easy to spot.


It seemed like on the other hand many were saying the claim of there being fraud involved in this election was outlandish.



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05 Dec 2020, 12:36 am

Brictoria wrote:
When you consider the amount of viloence from Antifa\BLM directed at the current President and his supporters, and the haste with which they determined that "their" candidate is now "President Elect", without waiting for the constitutional process to proceed (and in some cases seeking to hamper portion of this), this would conceivably also fit the definition...


What has BLM protests got to do with Trump trying to fabricate stories about election fraud that even you have admitted have bore any fruit for Trump or his MAGA and QAnon supporters. Again the losers are the US taxpayer and those trying to fight COVID.



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05 Dec 2020, 12:44 am

Tempus Fugit wrote:
It seemed like on the other hand many were saying the claim of there being fraud involved in this election was outlandish.

What's outlandish is witnesses such as this, depressingly typical of the allegations raised by Trump & Co.
It's a shame this meeting wasn't carried out under oath. That might have focused minds somewhat.


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