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Fnord
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12 Feb 2021, 4:27 pm

Pepe wrote:
... I am entitled to dislike a totalitarian government who is trying to destroy my country's economy through unethical/terrorist tactics.
Yet you seem to be defending Donald Trump and his totalitarian ambitions.


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cyberdad
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12 Feb 2021, 6:50 pm

Brictoria wrote:
French politicians, high-profile intellectuals and journalists are warning that progressive American ideas — specifically on race, gender, post-colonialism — are undermining their society. “There’s a battle to wage against an intellectual matrix from American universities,’’ warned Mr. Macron’s education minister.


The New York Times article refers to Macron and "other politicians", unamed intellectuals and journalists raising concerns specifically about "certain social science theories" imported from the US that "existentially" threaten France's intellectual and cultural heritage.

Even before critiquing the claim of an underlying threat it would be reasonable to first question
1, Who are these unamed intellectuals and journalists?
2. What are these vague social science theories?
3. What is the mechanism for these theories to enter French society?

The vagueness of these claims are a massive red flag. Beyond Macron and his education minister I see no evidence of any intellectual standing upon the ramparts of any French University deploring US leftwing ideology, The answer to this conundrum is simple. There was never such a thing as leftwing "woke" ideology to begin with. it is a fiction created by cunning/devious right wingers, wealthy elite and the politicians who all share/promulgate their beliefs to their support base.



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12 Feb 2021, 7:15 pm

Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
... I am entitled to dislike a totalitarian government who is trying to destroy my country's economy through unethical/terrorist tactics.
Yet you seem to be defending Donald Trump and his totalitarian ambitions.


You are attacking shadows.
Adapt your thinking.
I defend the Truth as I see it.



ezbzbfcg2
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12 Feb 2021, 9:00 pm

cyberdad wrote:
The issue raised was one of bullying.

I suggest we stick the to topic and go back to my original question asking for actual evidence (rather than opinions) of how France's culture is under threat from so called American "leftism"


I was making a statement about politics and life in general, not necessarily this particular website. Since it was already misinterpreted, I won't give any examples. It was just an addendum to someone else's point. (If you didn't find it relative, why did you even respond to it if you thought it was so detracting from the original subject of the article??)

As for your question...what evidence do you want? The whole article is based on claims made by French academics/intellectuals who don't cite any specific examples themselves. I have an opinion for why they're claiming what they claim, but there's really nothing to go on other than their accusations.

Going by the article, "new director of the Paris Opera, Alexander Neef, released a 66-page report on diversity at the company in which he vowed to diversify staff and to ban blackface." Neef had lived in Canada for a while, and was accused by the French Right of having taken in American ideas.

I'm guessing the argument is that a true-blue Frenchman wouldn't have written such a report in the first place. It's something an American would do. Seeing it in France doesn't simply bother the right, but also the centrist French who try to play the tip-toe act, since "the secular government does not recognize" race, according to the article.

Like they're saying, "We don't have racial problems in France because we don't recognize race. We treat everyone equally, and, in turn, we don't expect anyone to be offended or bothered by anything traditionally French because we're all French and we're all equal. These racial problems seem like an American thing."

Since American events like the death of George Floyd were protested by French blacks, it's also cited as an American import in the article.

I think France has its own set of race problems and is trying to play wish-away. Putting the blame on an outside influencer is a convenient detraction.



Fnord
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12 Feb 2021, 9:04 pm

Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
... I am entitled to dislike a totalitarian government who is trying to destroy my country's economy through unethical/terrorist tactics.
Yet you seem to be defending Donald Trump and his totalitarian ambitions.
You are attacking shadows.  Adapt your thinking.  I defend the Truth as I see it.
Better that you should defend the truth as it actually is, than as you want to see it.


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cyberdad
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12 Feb 2021, 10:58 pm

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I'm guessing the argument is that a true-blue Frenchman wouldn't have written such a report in the first place. It's something an American would do. Seeing it in France doesn't simply bother the right, but also the centrist French who try to play the tip-toe act, since "the secular government does not recognize" race, according to the article.
Like they're saying, "We don't have racial problems in France because we don't recognize race. We treat everyone equally, and, in turn, we don't expect anyone to be offended or bothered by anything traditionally French because we're all French and we're all equal. These racial problems seem like an American thing."


I think the accusations made by Macron and his education minister were more broad based attacking social theories purported to be promulgated by the US left and that Neef is opening the floodgates.

The claims about not recognising race is also made in Brazil and Mexico but covers up a racial hierarchy with white on top and black on the bottom. France is a racial tinderbox and my suspicion is Macron doesn't want George Floyd type protests by the north African minority living in Southern France.



ezbzbfcg2
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13 Feb 2021, 4:23 am

cyberdad wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I think the accusations made by Macron and his education minister were more broad based attacking social theories purported to be promulgated by the US left and that Neef is opening the floodgates.

The claims about not recognising race is also made in Brazil and Mexico but covers up a racial hierarchy with white on top and black on the bottom. France is a racial tinderbox and my suspicion is Macron doesn't want George Floyd type protests by the north African minority living in Southern France.


Yes, I would agree. And if the people on the top don't like what's happening, and can't acknowledge their own faults and reality of the situation, the go-to outlet is to blame an outside source. America is a good target.

So, with your original question, I don't believe there actually are any direct sources to cite. It's more like France has similar problems to America (same, but independent of one another). Since there's no outlet in France itself, a lot of American examples are cited by French protestors as a point of reference. But that doesn't mean America has influenced them, just that there's a lot of wish-away going on in France, so outside examples are needed.

I think America provides a point of reference for the French, not actual influence. The problems are there regardless.



Pepe
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13 Feb 2021, 4:48 am

Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
... I am entitled to dislike a totalitarian government who is trying to destroy my country's economy through unethical/terrorist tactics.
Yet you seem to be defending Donald Trump and his totalitarian ambitions.
You are attacking shadows.  Adapt your thinking.  I defend the Truth as I see it.
Better that you should defend the truth as it actually is, than as you want to see it.


I am not that presumptuous.



cyberdad
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13 Feb 2021, 5:15 am

ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
ezbzbfcg2 wrote:
I think the accusations made by Macron and his education minister were more broad based attacking social theories purported to be promulgated by the US left and that Neef is opening the floodgates.

The claims about not recognising race is also made in Brazil and Mexico but covers up a racial hierarchy with white on top and black on the bottom. France is a racial tinderbox and my suspicion is Macron doesn't want George Floyd type protests by the north African minority living in Southern France.


Yes, I would agree. And if the people on the top don't like what's happening, and can't acknowledge their own faults and reality of the situation, the go-to outlet is to blame an outside source. America is a good target.

So, with your original question, I don't believe there actually are any direct sources to cite. It's more like France has similar problems to America (same, but independent of one another). Since there's no outlet in France itself, a lot of American examples are cited by French protestors as a point of reference. But that doesn't mean America has influenced them, just that there's a lot of wish-away going on in France, so outside examples are needed.

I think America provides a point of reference for the French, not actual influence. The problems are there regardless.


Agree with that. Perhaps paranoia on the part of Macron, perhaps dog whistling?



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13 Feb 2021, 4:36 pm

Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
... I am entitled to dislike a totalitarian government who is trying to destroy my country's economy through unethical/terrorist tactics.
Yet you seem to be defending Donald Trump and his totalitarian ambitions.
You are attacking shadows.  Adapt your thinking.  I defend the Truth as I see it.
Better that you should defend the truth as it actually is, than as you want to see it.
I am not that presumptuous.
So what you're saying is that you defend what you believe, is that it?
You say you're not presumptious enough to recognise the truth - but there are truths, incontrovertible facts; it's not presumptuous to recognise them as such - so your truth is that which you hold to be true and not requiring any other external confirmation/denial. Beliefs or opinions, in other words.
That's Ok, no issue there. I'm trying to understand what you mean by "I defend the Truth as I see it".


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13 Feb 2021, 6:39 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
American 'leftism' is only a threat to french culture if you consider islamophobia, anti-semitism, downplaying the vichy regime, suppressing the languages and cultures of Bretons and Basques and Corsicans and Occitans, neocolonialism, and anti-blackness to be integral parts of french culture.

If France has a problem with islamism, it's because of their violent hatred of muslims. If France has a problem with separatists, it's because they treat anyone who isn't french enough as a threat to national unity.

Are there valid criticisms of cancel culture? Of course there are. But they sure as hell aren't coming from these people.

I think it is dangerous to blame Islamism on French Islamophobia. Islamism is an issue, to varying extents, in a large number of countries - including some where Islam is the state religion. And of course, the vast majority of French Muslims are not Islamists.

While there is certainly a place for liberal Islam in the modern world, there is no place for either Islamism or Islamophobia. The presence of one does not justify the existence of the other.



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13 Feb 2021, 7:01 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
I think it is dangerous to blame Islamism on French Islamophobia. Islamism is an issue, to varying extents, in a large number of countries - including some where Islam is the state religion. And of course, the vast majority of French Muslims are not Islamists.

While there is certainly a place for liberal Islam in the modern world, there is no place for either Islamism or Islamophobia. The presence of one does not justify the existence of the other.


In terms of connecting the dots between "diversity in the ballet", wokeness, George Floyd and French militant Islamism. The last one has nothing to do with wokeness or race.

Even here in Australia the muslim community are very careful to choose their battles. Issues around BLM, police, aboriginal rights, and racism you never hear a peep from the muslim community.

"Diversity" in relation to discrimination against muslims in places like the ballet are unlikely to register with the French muslim community. I doubt they could care less for George Floyd.



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13 Feb 2021, 9:12 pm

Cornflake wrote:
I'm trying to understand what you mean by "I defend the Truth as I see it".

Sounds an awful lot like "I choose to follow my inherent bias without question".

Hence regularly quoting right-wing news sources without ever balancing them out with some equally left-wing news sources. The left-wing equivalent of Sky News Australia or the Daily Mail isn't NBC, it's the Morning Star or Pravda.



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13 Feb 2021, 10:57 pm

Redd_Kross wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
I'm trying to understand what you mean by "I defend the Truth as I see it".

Sounds an awful lot like "I choose to follow my inherent bias without question".

Hence regularly quoting right-wing news sources without ever balancing them out with some equally left-wing news sources. The left-wing equivalent of Sky News Australia or the Daily Mail isn't NBC, it's the Morning Star or Pravda.


Fox media, Fairfax and 3AW are the 3 horsemen of the apocalypse with regard to right wing news.



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14 Feb 2021, 4:42 am

The_Walrus wrote:
I think it is dangerous to blame Islamism on French Islamophobia. Islamism is an issue, to varying extents, in a large number of countries - including some where Islam is the state religion. And of course, the vast majority of French Muslims are not Islamists.

While there is certainly a place for liberal Islam in the modern world, there is no place for either Islamism or Islamophobia. The presence of one does not justify the existence of the other.

Of course. I did not mean to imply it stemmed solely from French islamophobia. There are many factors that go into radicalization. Islamophobia is just one more thing that exacerbates the problem. It's a feedback loop where more radicalization leads to more islamophobia leads to more radicalization.


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14 Feb 2021, 5:33 am

roronoa79 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I think it is dangerous to blame Islamism on French Islamophobia. Islamism is an issue, to varying extents, in a large number of countries - including some where Islam is the state religion. And of course, the vast majority of French Muslims are not Islamists.

While there is certainly a place for liberal Islam in the modern world, there is no place for either Islamism or Islamophobia. The presence of one does not justify the existence of the other.

Of course. I did not mean to imply it stemmed solely from French islamophobia. There are many factors that go into radicalization. Islamophobia is just one more thing that exacerbates the problem. It's a feedback loop where more radicalization leads to more islamophobia leads to more radicalization.


When you visit someone's residence, do you treat it as your own, acting as you wish, or do you act as the owner of the residence expects.

Similarly, when someone visits your residence, do you allow them to do whatever they wish, or have expectations as to how they should act?

Take this to a national level: What some see as "Islamophobia" may simply be an expectation from the "owner" that the visitors\newcomers will act as the owner requests (follow customs, speak national language, etc.), whilst the "visitors" are refusing to do so, and treating the place as though it was their own home under their own rules...