Why Do people Promote the idea that Science is a religion?

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Ragtime
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09 May 2008, 1:39 pm

LKL wrote:

What is taught in science class is the current scientific consensus.

Which is taught as if it is absolute fact.
Questioning of it by students is strongly discouraged,
and often even used to belittle the student in front of the whole class.

LKL wrote:

Religion has no place in science classes.

Okay... Thank you for that random statement, but it doesn't really address why no one is allowed to simply question evolution without being silenced by the establishment one way or another.

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LKL
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09 May 2008, 1:41 pm

Ragtime wrote:

LKL wrote:

but they are not constitutionally entitled to teach their personal beliefs as fact.

Seriously, where have you been??

Constitutionally, no, they are not allowed to teach their personal beliefs as fact,

BUT THEY DO IT. (Do you understand those four words?)

Yes, they do. In COLLEGE, when they have TENURE. In HIGH SCHOOL, not so much. Or maybe I just went to a particularly good high school.

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09 May 2008, 1:50 pm

LKL wrote:

They don't have to agree with it, but if they want a good grade, they do have to understand it.

No, it's not just about understand and learning the current theory, which I have no problem with doing.
It's that students do have to agree with evolution if they want to pass their class.
Or else they have to purjure themselves, which is unfair to make them do,
especially the religious among them who would consider it a serious sin to lie
about their beliefs.

But clearly, you're insensitive to that.
"Horrors!", you wrote, mockingly.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 09 May 2008, 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

LKL
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09 May 2008, 1:51 pm

Ragtime wrote:

LKL wrote:

What is taught in science class is the current scientific consensus.

Which is taught as if it is absolute fact.
Questioning of it by students is strongly discouraged,
and often even used to belittle the student in front of the whole class.

I have to wonder how many actual science courses you took in high school. For myself, I was taught courses based on scientific theory, which starts, always, with a question; I was taught the history of significant experiments that led up to current understanding; where relevant, I was taught some of the things we don't know yet. When someone asked the teacher a question she didn't know the answer to - in particular, I remember asking an evo-devo question - she said, 'maybe you'll be the one to answer that someday.'

If students persist in asking stupid questions, however (for example, the ridiculous 'T2 would prevent evolution from happening*), I can see where a teacher would get a mite annoyed.

Quote:

...it doesn't really address why no one is allowed to simply question evolution without being silenced by the establishment one way or another.

they absolutely can question it. They just can't ask the same stupid question over and over.
*actual fundie quote:
"One of the most basic laws in the universe is the Second Law of Thermodynamics. This states that as time goes by, entropy in an environment will increase. Evolution argues differently against a law that is accepted EVERYWHERE BY EVERYONE. Evolution says that we started out simple, and over time became more complex. That just isn't possible: UNLESS there is a giant outside source of energy supplying the Earth with huge amounts of energy. If there were such a source, scientists would certainly know about it. {emphasis added}"

Last edited by LKL on 09 May 2008, 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ragtime
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09 May 2008, 1:54 pm

LKL wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

...it doesn't really address why no one is allowed to simply question evolution without being silenced by the establishment one way or another.

they absolutely can question it.

No, they cannot.
Not without being flat-out told they're wrong,
which is beyond anyone's knowledge to claim.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 09 May 2008, 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LKL
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09 May 2008, 1:55 pm

Ragtime wrote:

No, it's not just about understand and learning the current theory, which I have no problem with doing.
It's that students do have to agree with evolution if they want to pass their class.

No, they do not. No one has to sign a pledge of allegiance to the ToE in order to pass a biology class. All they have to do is write the correct answers, with respect to the theory, on a test. Again, I have to think that you never took a biology class in high school.

Quote:

But clearly, you're insensitive to that.
"Horrors!", you wrote, mockingly.

I mock when mockery is deserved.

Ragtime
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09 May 2008, 2:02 pm

LKL wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

No, it's not just about understand and learning the current theory, which I have no problem with doing.
It's that students do have to agree with evolution if they want to pass their class.

No, they do not. No one has to sign a pledge of allegiance to the ToE in order to pass a biology class. All they have to do is write the correct answers, with respect to the theory, on a test.

The tests ask how evolution happened.
Which, to a creationist, is as absurd a question as the classic catch-22 joke question to ask a peaceful man: "When did you stop beating your wife?" There's no right answer, because the premise of the question is flawed.
Likewise, to ask a creationist to explain in essay questions how evolution happened is to ask him to lie against his religious beliefs, plain and simple.

LKL wrote:

Again, I have to think that you never took a biology class in high school.

Why add to your errors??

I took and passed Biology in 11th grade, thank you very much.

LKL wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

But clearly, you're insensitive to that.
"Horrors!", you wrote, mockingly.

I mock when mockery is deserved.

Which apparently is around 95% of the time.

:roll:

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09 May 2008, 2:05 pm

Ragtime wrote:

LKL wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

...it doesn't really address why no one is allowed to simply question evolution without being silenced by the establishment one way or another.

they absolutely can question it.

No, they cannot.
Not without being flat-out told they're wrong,
which is beyond anyone's knowledge to claim.

Sometimes it is not beyond anyone's knowledge (see the example above). Most creationists use the same tired canards that they've been using for the last three decades, which have been answered more than adequately over and over. If one student wastes the entire class period asking stupid questions that they sophmorically think are the height of cutting-edge witticism, eventually they'll be asked to shut up and/or see the teacher after class - just like any other student trying to divert the class onto their own pet subject would be.
I imagine that there *are* bad science teachers out there - the ones who make stuff up rather than admit that they don't know, who belittle students without good reason - but that is the fault of the individual teacher, and it is far from the universal experience. It happens in other classes, too; the worst teacher I ever had was a 'research writing' instructor, who had to attack and belittle at least one student every week in order to make himself feel better. One could see the steam coming more thickly out of his ears, the longer it had been since he had turned on someone. He had control of the grades, and he made sure everyone knew that. That does not, however, mean that the theory of punctuation has something wrong with it, or that the idea that primary sources are better than tertiary sources is somehow weak and flawed.

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09 May 2008, 2:13 pm

Ragtime wrote:

The tests ask how evolution happened.

If they are exestentially unable to answer a simple question that is fundamental to basic biology, they they should not be in a biology class. If they are unable to learn the theory behind biology, then they will not pass a biology class. Students cannot impose their own ideas, regardless of the source, upon a science curriculum and expect to pass. If someone's religion said that the only elements were fire, air, earth, and water, then, if they took Chemistry, they would have to either make accomodations to alternative-but-disbelieved theories in their minds, or fail chemistry.

Quote:

I took and passed Biology in 11th grade, thank you very much.

and how was that?

Quote:

LKL wrote:

I mock when mockery is deserved.

Which apparently is around 95% of the time.

:roll:

with the issue of creationism in school, yes.

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09 May 2008, 2:24 pm

from a different angle... there are lots of classes i've had to take outside of biology that i don't care for... and i'm still required to learn the material as is and be able to answer questions in the context they're given to pass the exams in the class... doesn't mean i have to take it to heart... just understand the ideology behind it

can be as simple as physics: you can take the SAME physics class either calc based or not... you get the same kind of problems but you have to answer the problems in the discipline of the course you take... ie- some problems are way easier to answer with calc and vice versa... but you can't just substitute in the calc or other methods just cause you know a short cut.

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Ragtime
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09 May 2008, 2:41 pm

Sedaka wrote:

I'm fine with writing, as an essay answer on a test about evolution,
"Evolutionists hold that..." and then continuing my sentence from there.
I have no problem with doing that, because I'm writing the truth:
that evolutionists think what they think.

If, however, I get a mutliple-choice question that asks how life started on Earth,
and it does not qualify the question, with something like "How do evolutionists believe...",
then I'm not going to put an evolutionary answer.

("How do scientists believe man evolved?" would present a false premise,
because not all scientists believe in evolution.)

That's how strong my principles are, that I will deliberately answer a question
in a way that the grader thinks is wrong,
in order to answer it honestly.
Some people have more flexible morals than that,
and that is fine for them.
But it irks me deep down to be presented with a situation in which
I have to lie to succeed.

There must be a better way to design a curriculum.

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iamnotaparakeet
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09 May 2008, 2:55 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Sedaka wrote:

Some managers have tried requiring me to break policies or I lose my job... such a job is not worth having no matter what the loss in pay.

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09 May 2008, 3:25 pm

Ragtime wrote:

LKL wrote:

Public school teachers do not have the right to indoctrinate their captive audience with their own religious views, no.

That's what they do! Many public school teachers indoctrinate their captive audiences with whatever they want to teach, and get away with it completely, unless it in some way supports Christianity. Promoting any other religion is more allowed. Telling students God didn't create the universe is allowed, and commonly taught -- even though there's no way of knowing whether or not God created the universe.

Big. Fat. Lie.

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09 May 2008, 3:27 pm

Ragtime wrote:

LKL wrote:

but they are not constitutionally entitled to teach their personal beliefs as fact.

Seriously, where have you been??

Constitutionally, no, they are not allowed to teach their personal beliefs as fact,

BUT THEY DO IT. (Do you understand those four words?)

No, the teachers are just teaching the facts. The problem is that right-wingers think the facts are "liberal indoctrination."

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Ragtime
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09 May 2008, 3:27 pm

Odin wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

LKL wrote:

Public school teachers do not have the right to indoctrinate their captive audience with their own religious views, no.

Big. Fat. Lie.

Oh, I stand corrected.

:roll:

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iamnotaparakeet
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09 May 2008, 3:31 pm

Odin wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

LKL wrote:

but they are not constitutionally entitled to teach their personal beliefs as fact.

Seriously, where have you been??

Constitutionally, no, they are not allowed to teach their personal beliefs as fact,

BUT THEY DO IT. (Do you understand those four words?)

No, the teachers are just teaching the facts. The problem is that right-wingers think the facts are "liberal indoctrination."

That just assumes the position is true which feeds back into itself. :roll:

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