To religious people. Will atheists go to hell or heaven?
If I was religious and beleived that non believers would go to hell for that believing in my religion, I'd want to convert them.
How would converting them change anything? I am very skeptical about conversions.
If one believes in an Omniscient Creator, conversion changed nothing. You cannot intercede on what is to be.
_________________
sticks and stones may kill you.
You are a liar.
How else can they debunk the even the mere credibility of the notion that the universe was intelligently designed?
Unnecessary beauty in nature is a chief pillar of any view that the world was created by a being with an artistic eye.
odin's wrong. you're not a liar. you're just plain old intellectually challenged.
"beauty" is a subjective term.
So, when you see a sunset sky, you have to consult someone else to find out whether or not it's beautiful?

You don't have any sense of it whatsoever? Sorry, I'm not going to believe that.
Music itself is universally agreed to be beautiful.
My argument is that artists paint beautiful scenes.
And so, whenever I see a beautiful scene, I automatically think about the artist,
and what he was thinking when he painted it. Watching sunsets and elegantly-, eccentrically-designed
animals helps me know God better.
quit living like your opinion is universal fact. i could point out a lot of music to you that is not inherently beautiful. familiar with george crumb at all? maybe shoenberg? you'd say it's noise and not music but that's your subjective opinion of it. i think it's music and very engaging and very challenging music.

Need I even say that that's not the point? Need I even express agreement with the obvious fact that not everyone's musical taste is the same? Therefore, please address my point, and stop throwing out red herrings to buy yourself time.
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Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Yes, I agree! But what's wrong with thinking this way? I have yet to be convinced why worshipping a personal God is wrong.
Indeed! We do know why Satan would tell us that it's wrong, but beyond his evil and very obvious motives,
there is no true reason not to believe in God. And I find an endless number of correct reasons to believe in God.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Last edited by Ragtime on 03 Jun 2008, 11:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
This is your personal opinion. You cannot state it as fact. Christianity does not owe its existence to philogists. Philogists do not run the church today, nor do we pray to them before we go to sleep at ight. We do not cry out to the philogists during the throes of passionate lovemaking, nor do we credit philogists for providing the food we eat. How about lettibng the damned philogists speak for themselves?
I would be delighted to give you a philologists opinion. They actually seem to know much more about the origins of religion than modern priests, though maybe you know some much smarter than the ones I know. The Geanology of Morality actually describes religion as being a defense mechanism against feelings of inferiority.
Classic misunderstanding. I have never belonged to another religion, but I can say as a Christian that the "Christians use God as a crutch" argument comes from spiritually blind people, who attempt to use all they are familiar with -- that being the subject of human weakness -- to describe some humans' conversions to Christianity. Christians, however, know of both human weakness and Godly power, and they know that it is the latter which has brought them to belief in Christ.
The "carnal [earthly] man" the Bible refers to can only see carnal things, i.e. human weakness and limitations.
Therefore, they automatically conclude that everything mankind does is a result of various balances
among weaknesses and limitations, and not out of any truly great morality or noble purpose.
For, in denying God, they deny the true source of Christians' morality.
And therefore they must explain it away as something else, like weakness, or selfishness.
It is a flawed conclusion, based upon spiritual blindness that has not yet been removed from them by God,
because of their will not to believe.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
This is your personal opinion. You cannot state it as fact. Christianity does not owe its existence to philogists. Philogists do not run the church today, nor do we pray to them before we go to sleep at ight. We do not cry out to the philogists during the throes of passionate lovemaking, nor do we credit philogists for providing the food we eat. How about lettibng the damned philogists speak for themselves?
I would be delighted to give you a philologists opinion. They actually seem to know much more about the origins of religion than modern priests, though maybe you know some much smarter than the ones I know. The Geanology of Morality actually describes religion as being a defense mechanism against feelings of inferiority.
Classic misunderstanding. I have never belonged to another religion, but I can say as a Christian that the "Christians use God as a crutch" argument comes from spiritually blind people, who attempt to use all they are familiar with -- that being the subject of human weakness -- to describe some humans' conversions to Christianity. Christians, however, know of both human weakness and Godly power, and they know that it is the latter which has brought them to belief in Christ.
The "carnal [earthly] man" the Bible refers to can only see carnal things, i.e. human weakness and limitations.
Therefore, they automatically conclude that everything mankind does is a result of various balances
among weaknesses and limitations, and not out of any truly great morality or noble purpose.
For, in denying God, they deny the true source of Christians' morality.
And therefore they must explain it away as something else, like weakness, or selfishness.
It is a flawed conclusion, based upon spiritual blindness that has not yet been removed from them by God,
because of their will not to believe.
Actually, you might be wrong there. This man went to one of the most prestigious religious institutions, Bonn University in Germany, at the age of 17, with the intent of becoming a pastor. He found religion lacking of any real substance, and believed the "last decent Christian died on the cross". Your philosophical premises are weak, so I recommend retyping it before I look at it. So far, they seem to have been taken out of thin air.
Actually, Nietzsche made some really great arguments that there are no noble or great purposes. He dedicated whole books to Christians "fettered morality". Really quite a fascinating read, and really shows you the true depravity of the Christian religion, and the true weakness of those who adhere to the bronze age myth.
Well, the fact that god is simply a myth makes your premise flawed. Sorry. Can you try again? I really want to believe. Actually, many atheists are simply far too smart to convert. Nietzsche struggled for years to believe, and Sartre even later described it as searching for meaning in a godless universe.
I don't understand, I thought we were talking about logic, not about "spirit". Can you send me a picture of some of this spirit?
You really should read the authors you chose to talk about. Or maybe your genius isn't yet apparent to me yet.
Last edited by Kalister1 on 03 Jun 2008, 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ThatRedHairedGrrl
Veteran

Joined: 10 May 2008
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 912
Location: Walking through a shopping mall listening to Half Japanese on headphones
On whether the mystical aspects of religion see God as personal or not, my understanding has been that they did both, and that there was no contradiction. All mystics recognize that God is beyond description, but they also don't hesitate to use personal terms - Father, Mother, Beloved, words that express intimate relationship in human terms that people can understand. In reality, they're all symbolic, and have their limits. Describe God as 'he' (or, indeed, as 'she') and you immediately get tied up with human gender politics; describe God as a Mother or Father and you have people's own family baggage to deal with. This is why it's so vitally important that people are free to experience the Divine in their own way. The symbols that speak to one person may not speak to someone else.
As for good and evil, again, the mystical view seems to be that there is only one point of origin, only one all-embracing Source of everything that exists, so there's no other place anything could come from. To say it's 'beyond' our ideas of good and evil is one way of putting it; to say it 'includes' them is another. slowmutant's idea is similiar, I think, to some of the ideas found in the Jewish mystical system of Kabbalah, where all the aspects of God have their negative as well as positive side.
_________________
"Grunge? Isn't that some gross shade of greenish orange?"
And why are you so sure of that? That wreaks of arrogance.
Because the Abrahamic theologies make no sense based on our scientific knowledge
Not true generally, and in specific examples where Science -- which is man's imperfect pursuit of knowledge --
seems, to some, to put the Bible in questionable light,
maybe it is Science that needs to be questioned,
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God" (1 Cor 3:19).
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD" (Isaiah 55:8).
How so?
Please, release this news to the world immediately, for you alone know it!

_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
And why are you so sure of that? That wreaks of arrogance.
Because the Abrahamic theologies make no sense based on our scientific knowledge
Not true generally, and in specific examples where Science -- which is man's imperfect pursuit of knowledge --
seems, to some, to put the Bible in questionable light,
maybe it is Science that needs to be questioned,
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God" (1 Cor 3:19).
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD" (Isaiah 55:8).
How so?
Please, release this news to the world immediately, for you alone know it!

So you deny empiricism and logic? I believe you don't have a seat in this discussion if you do. Also, its considered an intellectual faux pas to utilize biblical quotes. Actually, I've met many intellectuals who were Pantheist, and very few who were Chrisitian.
ThatRedHairedGrrl
Veteran

Joined: 10 May 2008
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 912
Location: Walking through a shopping mall listening to Half Japanese on headphones
Well, I wasn't just referring to Christianity, and 'Mother' is a common term for the Divine among Hindu mystics, to name one tradition.
Having said that, there are some modern, mainly feminist theologians who've pointed out the existence of female metaphors for God in the Old Testament - God as woman in childbirth is one of the more obvious ones - but there were also mystics in the Middle Ages who used the term 'Mother'. Check out Julian of Norwich...
_________________
"Grunge? Isn't that some gross shade of greenish orange?"
What does your religion say will happen to me?
This is just my opinion but here it goes.
If God really is omniscient and all-knowing, he created this, he knew what would happen, he'd have the capacity to follow the chain of cause and effect just based on our own limitations, what he gave us as personality types, what we'd be inclined toward, what it would take for us to - in our lives - hit a tipping point in terms of seeing enough of the right things. In other words omniscient, omnipotent, and creator means he'd have to have perfect empathy. Perfect empathy would be a nature which would understand why every atheist is who they are, why they disbelieve in his existence, some have very valid reasons others don't - more relative to how their wired, what's happened to them emotionally, what they've seen or haven't; he left a lot of room in this world for doubt, deliberately, and he knows it.
He also sent Himself down as a man into Israel, a man who physically healed so many blind people, lame people, and lepers, and taught so astonishingly that news of this amazing healing and teaching eventually travelled all over the world.
In all fairness, the Messiah left little room for doubt, either in Israel or across the globe.
I could offer as evidence Christendom's some 1 billion members. So, I would say that Christ had
a global impact, for sure.
And I agree, God knows everyone's heart, and the Bible says He will judge every person rightly,
based on His omniscient knowledge.
These things are clear from Scripture:
1. No one will go to Hell without deserving it, which God defines as deliberate denial of Him.
(And "denial" doesn't mean denial of His existence, for everyone has inner instinct of that.
Rather, "denial" refers to the conscious denial to serve and worship Him.)
2. No one will get into Heaven on their own merits. No one deserves to be there.
Jesus paid the price of all our sins, so that those people who accept that payment get in absolutely free.
What kind of person turns down a "Get into Heaven absolutely free" proposal?
This question has long puzzled me.
Literally all they have to do to get into Heaven is to decide within their hearts that they
truly want to believe in God. This will cause the person to seek Him out.
And Jesus said those who seek God will find Him.
And He also said, "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God" (Matt 5:8).
One can make a gift certificate analogy for eternal Salvation. (Really!)
If someone buys everyone in the world a gift certificate to an internet store,
who among those will reap the benefits? Those who take and use their gift certificate, of course!
If you go to the website on your own merits, however, they won't give you anything.
Likewise, Jesus paid our way into Heaven at the cross. If we reject Him, we reject His gift of Salvation.
No one who truly wants to believe in God will fail to do so. And any extent to which someone would say
that person "failed", perhaps because they couldn't find much faith, God will still count that "failure" as success,
because it was an attempt, and He'll let that person in.
This is because God always considers the attempt more than the result.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Last edited by Ragtime on 03 Jun 2008, 2:39 pm, edited 14 times in total.
What does your religion say will happen to me?
This is just my opinion but here it goes.
If God really is omniscient and all-knowing, he created this, he knew what would happen, he'd have the capacity to follow the chain of cause and effect just based on our own limitations, what he gave us as personality types, what we'd be inclined toward, what it would take for us to - in our lives - hit a tipping point in terms of seeing enough of the right things. In other words omniscient, omnipotent, and creator means he'd have to have perfect empathy. Perfect empathy would be a nature which would understand why every atheist is who they are, why they disbelieve in his existence, some have very valid reasons others don't - more relative to how their wired, what's happened to them emotionally, what they've seen or haven't; he left a lot of room in this world for doubt, deliberately, and he knows it.
He also sent Himself down as a man into Israel, a man who physically healed so many blind people, lame people, and lepers, and taught so astonishingly that news of this amazing healing and teaching eventually travelled all over the world.
In all fairness, the Messiah left little room for doubt, either in Israel or across the globe.
And I agree, God knows everyone's heart, and the Bible says He will judge every person rightly,
based on His omniscient knowledge.
These things are clear from Scripture:
1. No one will go to Hell without deserving it, which God defines as deliberate denial of Him.
(And "denial" doesn't mean denial of His existence, for everyone has inner instinct of that.
Rather, "denial" refers to the denial to serve Him as Lord of their lives.)
2. No one will get into Heaven on their own merits. No one deserves to be there.
Jesus paid the price of all our sin, so that those who accept that payment get in free.
One can make a gift certificate analogy for eternal Salvation. (Really!)
If someone buys everyone in the world a gift certificate to an internet store,
who among those will reap the benefits? Those who take and use their gift certificate.
If you go to the website on your own merits, however, they won't give you anything.
No one who truly wants to believe in God will fail to do so. And any extent to which someone would say
that person "failed", God will count as success, and let them in.
You can not use arguments from scriptures. Even people who advocate Christianity do not use it, as its a weak premise. Please, use logic and not something that has been shown, multiple times, to lead to an infinitely recursive argument.
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