*Feminism IS Population Control*

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pandd refuses to be sanctioned.

No. I think that if one found traces of a society/culture in which women had rights, ( over their own sexuality and reproduction, and equal rights over resources ), and yet there was rampant overpopulation, and high birth rates, it would be serious evidence against the hypothesis that women's rights are, in themselves, a kind of population control.

An example of how population growth may be related to women's status in society is the baby-boom that happened after women were pushed back into the home at the end of the second world war. Even men, working in the labs, ( it was almost all men working in the labs then ), seemed to have felt the need to stem the flood, because they invented the pill at this point.

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Last edited by ouinon on 22 Dec 2008, 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Feminism seems to have population-control as its byproduct, whether by design or incidentally.

That is what I believe, ( provisionally, in the absence of data to prove otherwise ).

I understand that it is possible to argue that it is simply a correlation, ( though with curious holes/anomalies ), and that the same and/or chronologically close factors which provoked the feminist movement also provoked the drop in birth rate. But I am not convinced. I think that there is a causal relationship.

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Finished reading all the posts topic

Whew!!

Did feminism intentionally set out to achieve population control? Or was this part of the feminist philosophy? I have read Simone de Beauvoir's Second Sex, and other books/authors and I am not convinced feminism and population control are synonymous. But Ouinon, this is not what you intended? You do think there is a causal relationship? Hindsight is 20/20 vision!

I am a feminist, and I wanted the kids, not the man! For other feminists, some want the man and no kids. Some prefer to have same sex partners, again with or without kids. There are many combinations. Some feminists just want to be alone.

I think the gist of feminism is that humans have the choice to shed their former roles that were historically (at least in Western Society) givens and became free to be themselves and to live, work, procreate (or not) based on choices. Both men and women have these freedoms. It is not that every woman or every man can be ultimately anything, as we do not all have the same abilities (eg to get pregnant, of course unless you are the pregnant man, or a woman with viable sperm ). Feminism, is all about not being limited to a certain nature, in that we are all individuals, regardless of sex/gender.

You hate men. Admit it.

I do not think that in general we are any freer under feminism than we were before. Just that the goal posts have moved, and push us in another direction instead.

Some people may be happier under these new rules than they would have been under the old ones, but others are less happy.

What has changed is what society achieves under these new rules, and I think population control is one of the achievements because women have been encouraged/taught to want to do other things apart from childbearing.
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Last edited by ouinon on 23 Dec 2008, 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Now slowmutant you should know better than to drop invalid conclusions onto members who happen to disagree with your...uhhh...argument....

I mean I would think you could relate just by your own experiences in religious debates.

Don't mention the pink elephant in the room ever again slow mutant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_in_the_room

Why is it necessary for feminist women to be by themselves? The shunning of home and family, the intellectual snobbery, the sexism ... that's what I don't like. The subtext of feminism seems to say, "Men are bad. Men are bad. Why can't they all just die?"

Why does one sex have to be "better" than the other?

You mean femenism movements were all about snobbery back in the day when females were not only not given the right to vote but allowed to be paid equal wage as the man?

Why do women like to be alone?

Why do men like to be alone?

And I have to say I see there is an equal if not more amount of snobbery and sexism among guys. I'm a bit confused as to what you consider snobbery. Are you saying that Pandd should agree with all of you because she happens to be a female?

I don't see this kind of issue among men who happen to debate in this forum. I haven't even seen direct attacks. If she wants to persist in her debating, I see nothing wrong with it no more than a guy who persists in a debate.

As I stated earlier in this post, the OP did not make it clear about what generation of femenism we're talking about here so I don't know what is offensive about femenism but then again I don't know what femenism is about in today's society only in history. But if I lived a 100 years back as a female, you damn skippy I'd be a femenist if I wasn't aloud the same opportunities as a guy. That is to have a say in government, to have the same equal job opportunities, and the right to be just as heard as a man. I'm not saying this out of competition but where would women be who were widows, unmarried, or old be?

Also, not all women are lucky enough to marry a Prince Charming and be sweeped into a castle where she no longer has to work for the rest of her life. So your statement is a bit bias if you can't question why guys would want to be alone or bachelors in no commited relationships. I know my sister did most of the working and my brother in law did most of the drinking. She left him for a very good reason in which children were involved in the matter.

I also don't understand where you are getting these opinions about women shunning their homes, family and so forth. Are you saying femenism is a gigantic cult or that women shouldn't be allowed to live on their own or decide to be independent?

Before the radical feminism in the 60's, it wasn't necessary for women to work just to get by. They lamented house wives back then as if they were simpletons who should get out of the house and compete with men to prove their worth. Even now, feminists paint full time mothers in a bad light. They fail to see the honor in our natural worth as human beings and the role we play in shaping humanity. We don't need to be like men to be equal.

However in a different light, look at USA currently... we are in a ressecion. when the depression hit, unmarried women were the worst off, most had zero education past highschool (my grandmother included) therefor most who already only worked to help their families could no longer find work to help their families. Where as today, lucky for them, women have an equal if not greater chance of finding a job in this horrible economic situation...

Nothing wrong with a housewife, so long as she or her husband can provide for the family in times of crisis. Thank's to the 60's movement, it is that much easier. (taken from my own 84 year old Grandmothers mouth)

-Zane

Thank you. All I wanted was a little validation.

You mean you want someone to agree with you without you doing some of the elbow grease....

I don't think anyone here is saying women shouldn't have a choice. If she wants to be single and work, no one is stopping her. She should get equal wages. If she is married, it would be better to not work so that she can take care of the kids. However, it is very difficult to have a family get by on one wage. After the 60's the cost of living went up. Most people can't even afford to buy a house now and are cash poor and way in debt. Before radical feminism a family could buy all the necessities on one income.

Maybe feminism causes lowers the population because women are faced with making a decision. If she doesn't marry a rich guy, she has to work. It's not ideal to send children off to day care. I think it breaks the mothers heart and it's not good for the kids.
A logical woman wouldn't want to start a family if she has to struggle. Of course accidents happen...no disrespect to single moms...