abortion terminology

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Edited. I get pushed, I usually push back.

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Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 20 May 2009, 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I agree, as that is nonsensical!! !

But, I don't think that other people have found a non nonsensical basis for making policy.

I'm curious. Does this 'human extinction movement' include yourself?

Usually not, as I think the movement is more of a claim that continued breeding is an evil that people should stop involving themselves in.

I think there are basically two sides to the movement(although I am not certain as I only threw out the possibility without doing a lot of research):
1) The deep ecology side, that says that human beings hurt nature, which I think is stupid.
2) The anti-giving birth side, that claims that human existence involves pain, and for this reason we should not force people to exist.

Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 20 May 2009, 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

So you think Shadowgirl was wrong when she said

I've read of that movement - they don't advocate suicide/homicide, they just advocate not reproducing.

Well, I guess I do that too. But that's because I'm pro-life in that aspect. Living people are sure as hell more valuable than foetuses.

But that is by definition forcing your religion on others. Choosing not to have an abortion is fine, trying to prevent a woman who wants one is not. Other examples include censorship (ie anti-porn), laws forcing bars to be closed Sundays, anti-gay marriage, the Christian War on Science (trying to teach Christian Mythology as opposed to actual science), the pledge of allegiance (which has only included "under god" since 1954), etc, etc ,etc.

I wouldn't object to censoring porn for perfectly secular reasons. I'm not forcing my religion (I don't have one) on anybody this way because my reasons are secular.

Does this make my opinion on the matter better than a similar one held by a religious person?

Last edited by McTell on 20 May 2009, 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Government, by definition, is force. So, to even vote, you force your beliefs onto another person. I don't see why issues about where this belief ultimately originates matters though, or what this belief is called, as these beliefs are ultimately arbitrary.

No, it isn't. I'm not forcing you to believe anything you don't want to. But if my faith leads me to believe that a particular issue is important (ie I am anti-war because I believe killing is wrong) then I will act on that. I will also respect the laws of the society I live in (as commanded by the Apostle Paul) and refrain from trying to force others to abide by my religious beliefs.


The pro-life position, whether from a religious or atheist perspective, is that abortion is murder. Once you can understand that, we'll stop talking past each other. What you are saying is, to a pro-lifer, exactly equivalent to "Choosing not to go around murdering people is fine, trying to prevent people who want to murder from doing so is not." Do you see the problem here?


Find one person on this planet more anti-censorship than me. Go ahead, try.


The commandment relating to the Sabbath only applies to members of the faith, so it is, of course, stupid to impose it on others. And it could even be claimed that Christians were freed from that particular obligation by Jesus, so it's not even binding to Christians either.


My church actively fights for gay rights, including same-sex marriage, and we do so on the basis of our religious beliefs.


I've never been in favor of that, and I can quote major Christian thinkers going back to about the 5th century who agree with me.


That's not forced on anyone, and it certainly does not impose a religion on you.


Such as?

*waves*

*Waves back*

Seriously, I am anti-censorship to the point that most people would just regard me as a lunatic extremist, even others who are generally strongly in favor of free speech.

and therefore prove his point, by saying people shouldn't have certain rights because your sky god says so, then you are forcing your beliefs on others. Just because some book says a a man can't marry who he loves because its a man he loves or says a woman can't decide whether or not she can afford a child is wrong on every level. How would you feel if I said you can't get married because my beliefs says that you are evil for following god?

That's not forced on anyone, and it certainly does not impose a religion on you.

that is where you are very very wrong. In the past you were legally required to say it and it was on;y changed when someone brought suit against the state.

Having "god" in the pledge and on the money is an imposition - since a public school is paid for with tax dollars and we all use money. Try to tell some town council members around the country the pledge isn't forced when they were recalled for not saying it (due to objecting to the religious message. ) Some Christians even oppose having it on the money - seeing it as blasphemous.

Calling abortion murder is an extremely irrational precept - along the lines of saying stepping on an acorn is equivalent to cutting down an oak tree. A fetus can't think. And talking about a "potential person" is going down a dangerous path - which could make not having sex (or even resisting rape) seen as evil.

Main reason murder is illegal is most people would object to being murdered (or having family members, friends, etc murdered.) A fetus is incapable of fearing it's own destruction and has not made friends yet (nor family - since the mother doesn't want it. ) I really see nothing whatsoever wrong with abortion up until the moment of birth, but I do see forcing a woman to have an unwanted baby as extremely horrible.