Is there any proof God exists?

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trollcatman
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28 Mar 2015, 4:29 pm

Oldavid wrote:

trollcatman wrote:

Didn't the Big Bang create spacetime? Without that there wouldn't be much causality. And we both know that even if I came up with a scientific article it is unlikely that either of us could interpret the data and the mathematics, unless you happen to be a theoretical physicist.

Quite apart from the "Big Bang" being a fantastic conjecture that only exists in the imagination of certain ideologues because genuine science can show that it is philosophically, physically, mathematically impossible for an imaginary "singularity" to spontaneously turn itself into an orderly Universe.

Anyhow, the best (most precise and succinct) definition of time that I know of is "time is the rate of succession of events". No events and no succession thereof = no time. It's an enchantingly beautiful definition if you think about it.

I don't suppose you have proof there is concensus among scientists that the BB theory is nonsense?
And time is not just for timekeeping, time is part of spacetime and is actually something "physical" as it can be altered by high gravity or high speeds.

AngelRho
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28 Mar 2015, 4:31 pm

Oldavid wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

Everything that BEGINS to exist has a cause. If something were to be infinite in nature, it can't be said to have ever BEGUN…it always WAS and always WILL BE. It is able to lie outside the causal chain and still initiate it. No caused first Cause is necessary. It is logical to conclude that the first Cause was uncaused.

Yes. And in addition to that it follows that anything that changes or is changeable cannot be eternal because it's never what it was and never what it will be. Also any change requires an agent to cause the change. Interesting stuff.

Cannot be eternal? I'm not so sure. I haven't made my mind up on this one: If God is immutable in every sense, how could God be the Creator before the act of creation?

I can't think of a good solution to that one. It would appear that God changed with the act of creation. The only solution I can think of in which God would remain immutable and still be a Creator before/after the act of creation might be in God's eternal nature. One way of explaining God as eternal is by postulating that God exists at all points of time simultaneously. God knows the future because He's already in the future. From God's perspective, all events have already happened and are as static as written words on a page. C.S. Lewis made the analogy that if all events of the universe are represented by a line drawn on a page, God is the paper the line is drawn on. Therefore, God was already the Creator before the actual act of creation.

Probably not a very sophisticated solution, maybe not even remotely the best one, but it's better than anything else I can come up with.

heh…

Now how about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin? :lol:

Canadian1911
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28 Mar 2015, 5:20 pm

I'll come back to this thread, after my porn, cup of tea, and my grocery shopping.

Janissy
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28 Mar 2015, 5:31 pm

Oldavid wrote:

Canadian1911 wrote:

I have never yet, found a reasonable argument in favour of "god"....

Hmmm. Neither did many who saw lepers healed, the lame walking, the blind seeing........

I'm tired of this merry-go-round of nonsense.

Look here if you dare.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/lib ... orrupt.htm

Last time I got a count there were 135 of these inexplicable preservations recorded... some of which were chopped up for souvenirs for various dignitaries.

And if you are exceptionally brave;

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_app ... cles1.html

I'm not presenting this as "proof" of anything but the arrogance and ignorance of the perverse. In about the last 200 years no "miracle" has been accepted as such unless it has been acknowledged by secular authorities as "inexplicable" according to the best science available.

Compare that scrupulousness to the credulity of Materialists who blithely accept fairy tales of "Singularities", Black Holes, Worm Holes, Multiverses and so on... none of which can be justified or verified by observation or experiment.

The incorruptile saints are examples of embalming and microclimates. Lenin is similarly preserved although not at all saintly.

AngelRho
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28 Mar 2015, 5:41 pm

Canadian1911 wrote:

I'll come back to this thread, after my porn, cup of tea, and my grocery shopping.

Meh…you can keep the porn. Personally, I find the real deal to be much, much better.

Tea, on the other hand…that sounds good right now. I just drank the last of the day's pot of coffee and am not in the mood to brew more. I *think* I still have some green tea somewhere. Not really what I'm in the mood for, but it will do. I'd prefer a jasmine/darjeeling blend. I'll just have to take what I can get.

Can't think about groceries right now…I'm fasting for 3 more hours. Will likely skip a full dinner and just have a bowl of popcorn.

Canadian1911
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28 Mar 2015, 5:53 pm

AngelRho wrote:

Canadian1911 wrote:

I'll come back to this thread, after my porn, cup of tea, and my grocery shopping.

I'm enjoying my cup of tea right now. I gotta go low income grocery shopping in a bit. Noodles, KD, pop.

AngelRho
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28 Mar 2015, 6:12 pm

Canadian1911 wrote:

I'm enjoying my cup of tea right now. I gotta go low income grocery shopping in a bit. Noodles, KD, pop.

Ugh…don't miss the low-income shopping at all. We just buy the most-used stuff in bulk. We stock up on 100 lb. of rice and 100 lb. of bread flour at a time, peanut butter by the gallon, canola oil, and instant oats. I can stretch 6 cups of flour per week into 16 rolls for the kids' lunch boxes and two pizzas every Friday night, plus Asian-style steamed rice in the pressure cooker in less than 10 minutes. Paycheck-to-paycheck grocery shopping is really only for one meal a day+weekends, and I don't eat for 24 hours beginning Friday night. It's unreal how far a family of 5 can go on a combined income of less than $30k and no welfare.

I'd like to set aside a lot more money and massively stockpile frozen veggies and only hit the grocery for meat, fresh apples and bananas. Being broke I can handle. Being broke and starving is the scary part. One of the benefits of fasting no less than once a week is you don't take it for granted.

Lintar
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28 Mar 2015, 6:28 pm

trollcatman wrote:

Any - any - act of creation presupposes the existence of causality, so to say that 'the Big Bang created spacetime' is to acknowledge the existence of causality on a level that transcends spacetime.

Lintar
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28 Mar 2015, 6:35 pm

trollcatman wrote:

There are also events that are probabilistic and not deterministic, such as radioactive decay. That just functions outside of causality (or maybe it has a cause that we have not yet been able to identify). Perhaps universes pop into existence in a probabilistic way, there is just no way to know right now. And to continue on my train of unfounded thought: perhaps universes cause other universes to exist. That could possibly explain the finely-tuned universe, as finely-tuned universes may be better at causing new universes to exist. Of course there is zero evidence for this, it's just something I was thinking of a while ago.

'Trollcatman', you don't sound very confident here. I had always been given the very strong impression that extreme atheists (like Dan Dennett, Susan Blackmore) believed that, regardless of the probabilistic basis of Q.M., nature was, at bottom, purely deterministic. Now you are trying to say it might not be. So which is it?

If nature is not strictly deterministic, then free will exists. Free will is an issue that makes most, though certainly not all, atheists uncomfortable.

Lintar
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28 Mar 2015, 6:37 pm

daniel1948 wrote:

Well, yesterday morning I spent so much time posting to this thread that I was later than I wanted to be getting to my exercising. My exercising is important to me because it is critical for staying healthy, especially at my age. So, as enjoyable as it is to argue whether or not there's a magic man in the sky (or an ineffable non-corporeal intelligence outside of space and time who for reasons unknown decided to create a universe with a world as malformed as this one), I'm dropping out of this thread. I'm not leaving WP, just this thread. Have fun, all. Last one out, please turn off the lights.

Admitting defeat? That's understandable :mrgreen:

Lintar
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28 Mar 2015, 6:40 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

Very sensible move, Daniel.

I'm sure the "Big Daddy in the Sky" would approve, wholeheartedly!

I'm sure he's laughing up there!

A 'big daddy' who also happens to be a strawman. Why do committed atheists always insist that the big sky daddy is what ALL theists believe in? I guess they do this because they can't argue against the more sophisticated philosophical claims made by those who point out the logical necessities that naturally follow given the existence of the reality we know. It's just too much of a challenge for them.

Lintar
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28 Mar 2015, 6:47 pm

Canadian1911 wrote:

I have never yet, found a reasonable argument in favour of "god"....

Keep searching, you'll eventually come around to the truth. That's the key; to not be too hasty in reaching a conclusion, one way or the other.

Lintar
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28 Mar 2015, 6:50 pm

Booyakasha wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

Canadian1911 wrote:

I don't even read that guy's responses lol first it's too long, second it doesn't make sense. I don't think he's sane, is he in an institution?

Did you seriously just post this on an autistic spectrum forum? Go ahead and report me to the mods, but I'm wondering if you're an NT and/or a troll. It's one thing to debate ideas and hold the views of others as ridiculous. It's entirely something else to attack someone outright with that level of insensitivity.

People, let's play nicely please.

Yes, we don't want this thread closed down by the moderators!

Oldavid
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28 Mar 2015, 6:51 pm

Janissy wrote:

The incorruptile saints are examples of embalming and microclimates. Lenin is similarly preserved although not at all saintly.

Sez you. There is an example of one thrown into a pit with others and lime to speed up the decomposition process.

Pope John XXIII (also not at all saintly) is preserved with world best preservation tactics and "triple sealed" in an inert atmosphere but still inexorably deteriorating.

AngelRho
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28 Mar 2015, 6:51 pm

Lintar wrote:

daniel1948 wrote:

Admitting defeat? That's understandable :mrgreen:

Eh…don't be too hard on him. This stuff will take over your life if you don't watch it. I'm only in here frequently at the moment because this project I'm working on is trying my patience.

AngelRho
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28 Mar 2015, 6:53 pm

Lintar wrote:

Booyakasha wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

Canadian1911 wrote:

I don't even read that guy's responses lol first it's too long, second it doesn't make sense. I don't think he's sane, is he in an institution?

People, let's play nicely please.

Yes, we don't want this thread closed down by the moderators!

90 pages on this topic in PPR has got to be some kind of record.

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