Is there any proof God exists?

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Lintar
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28 Mar 2015, 7:05 pm

trollcatman wrote:

Except that before the creation of time there is no causality at all, since you need time for that.

Surprisingly enough, you don't need time. I'll give an example.

The computer that I am now using, and all the other peripherals like the keyboard, exist where they do, in the arrangement they have, due to the existence of the table they rest upon. This relationship, the one that exists between the table (the contingent cause) and the objects that rest upon it (the contingent effects) are simultaneous; that is, absent the existence of the table (for example, if the table could spontaneously dematerialise) all of those objects would immediately crash to the floor. The objects upon the table require the existence of that table in order to be where they are in space. This relationship is not sequential in time, because the effect does not follow the cause in time. This is known as atemporal causality (or 'non-temporal causality').

Canadian1911
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28 Mar 2015, 7:08 pm

AngelRho wrote:

Canadian1911 wrote:

I'm enjoying my cup of tea right now. I gotta go low income grocery shopping in a bit. Noodles, KD, pop.

Ugh…don't miss the low-income shopping at all. We just buy the most-used stuff in bulk. We stock up on 100 lb. of rice and 100 lb. of bread flour at a time, peanut butter by the gallon, canola oil, and instant oats. I can stretch 6 cups of flour per week into 16 rolls for the kids' lunch boxes and two pizzas every Friday night, plus Asian-style steamed rice in the pressure cooker in less than 10 minutes. Paycheck-to-paycheck grocery shopping is really only for one meal a day+weekends, and I don't eat for 24 hours beginning Friday night. It's unreal how far a family of 5 can go on a combined income of less than $30k and no welfare.

I'd like to set aside a lot more money and massively stockpile frozen veggies and only hit the grocery for meat, fresh apples and bananas. Being broke I can handle. Being broke and starving is the scary part. One of the benefits of fasting no less than once a week is you don't take it for granted.

$34 should last me a week.

As far as starving goes, I doubt you're actually starving - even with my groceries I just got, I won't be starving this week. Actually starving, is horrible.

Last edited by Canadian1911 on 28 Mar 2015, 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AngelRho
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28 Mar 2015, 7:14 pm

Canadian1911 wrote:

$34 should last me a week.

Ah, yes…I remember being fresh out of college. $34 dollars kept me in sandwich meat, bread, and 6-packs of beer for AT LEAST a week at a time. Those were the days…

It all goes to pot when you have 4 other people who insist on 3 squares a day.

Diet Mug??? I'm sorry, dude…give yourself a little more credit than that and go for Diet A&W. The aged vanilla masks the artifickle sweetener taste, plus the thicker syrup makes it indistinguishable from the real thing.

Lintar
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28 Mar 2015, 7:16 pm

Oldavid wrote:

Canadian1911 wrote:

I have never yet, found a reasonable argument in favour of "god"....

Hmmm. Neither did many who saw lepers healed, the lame walking, the blind seeing........

I'm tired of this merry-go-round of nonsense.

Look here if you dare.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/lib ... orrupt.htm

Last time I got a count there were 135 of these inexplicable preservations recorded... some of which were chopped up for souvenirs for various dignitaries.

And if you are exceptionally brave;

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_app ... cles1.html

I'm not presenting this as "proof" of anything but the arrogance and ignorance of the perverse. In about the last 200 years no "miracle" has been accepted as such unless it has been acknowledged by secular authorities as "inexplicable" according to the best science available.

Compare that scrupulousness to the credulity of Materialists who blithely accept fairy tales of "Singularities", Black Holes, Worm Holes, Multiverses and so on... none of which can be justified or verified by observation or experiment.

Exactly. If you believe in black holes, then show me one and then I will also believe in them, or at least present an argument that demonstrates that their non-existence would be the more extraordinary of the two options. Wormholes, black holes, multiverses, and singularities are, at this point in time, purely theoretical, for none of these entities have ever been observed, either directly or indirectly. I have heard it said that, 'It is believed that there resides a giant black hole at the centre of our galaxy...' Believed?

Canadian1911
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28 Mar 2015, 7:19 pm

AngelRho wrote:

Canadian1911 wrote:

$34 should last me a week.

I'm in college right now, living on disability which is liveable. I can pay my rent, bus pass, and phone bill and still have more than enough for food as evidence by the $34 cost. Water is also free technically. I am hoping to get a job sooner than later though.

That being said, time to make KD and mug for dinner.

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28 Mar 2015, 7:56 pm

Canadian1911 wrote:

Actually starving, is horrible.

I wouldn't know. I've never been without food when availability of it would have been in question.

I DID successfully complete a total fast (water only) for 40 days. No doctor supervision, no vitamins. Safely reintroduced food when it was over and avoided refeeding. It's only the first two weeks that are bad. Hypokalemia started catching up with me the last week of it, but I managed to hang on and complete the 40 days. Once ketosis set in, there were times I felt amazingly euphoric. Room-temp tap water tasted like honey. It was awesome.

Would NOT recommend just anybody try it, though! lol

Canadian1911
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28 Mar 2015, 8:07 pm

AngelRho wrote:

Canadian1911 wrote:

Actually starving, is horrible.

LOL. I've decided to make dinner: Roobeer + Noodles + Kraft Dinner. I have a funny feeling that the noodles will be more filling than the KD was. lol.

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28 Mar 2015, 8:42 pm

Lintar wrote:

trollcatman wrote:

There are also events that are probabilistic and not deterministic, such as radioactive decay. That just functions outside of causality (or maybe it has a cause that we have not yet been able to identify). Perhaps universes pop into existence in a probabilistic way, there is just no way to know right now. And to continue on my train of unfounded thought: perhaps universes cause other universes to exist. That could possibly explain the finely-tuned universe, as finely-tuned universes may be better at causing new universes to exist. Of course there is zero evidence for this, it's just something I was thinking of a while ago.

'Trollcatman', you don't sound very confident here. I had always been given the very strong impression that extreme atheists (like Dan Dennett, Susan Blackmore) believed that, regardless of the probabilistic basis of Q.M., nature was, at bottom, purely deterministic. Now you are trying to say it might not be. So which is it?

If nature is not strictly deterministic, then free will exists. Free will is an issue that makes most, though certainly not all, atheists uncomfortable.

Why would free will make an atheist uncomfortable. I'm an atheist. Doesn't the very idea of there being no God correlate directly with free will. Suggesting we didn't have it would imply that we are somehow controlled by an unseen power...

kraftiekortie
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28 Mar 2015, 9:13 pm

I'm an atheist who believes mostly in free will.

sophisticated
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28 Mar 2015, 11:00 pm

trollcatman wrote:

Maybe you don't want God in your life.

Canadian1911
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29 Mar 2015, 12:49 am

sophisticated wrote:

trollcatman wrote:

Maybe you don't want God in your life.

Dodging the question, plus your implying he is just disbelieving in presence of evidence - which he is not, he is disbelieving in absence of evidence.

sophisticated
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29 Mar 2015, 1:20 am

Canadian1911 wrote:

sophisticated wrote:

trollcatman wrote:

Maybe you don't want God in your life.

Dodging the question, plus your implying he is just disbelieving in presence of evidence - which he is not, he is disbelieving in absence of evidence.

Sometimes, we see what we want to see.

AspieOtaku
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29 Mar 2015, 1:22 am

Lintar wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

There is no Easter Bunny there is no Santa Clause, there is no Tooth Fairy or Boogie Man, or Sand Man, Jack Frost is not real either and neither is God it is all mythology.

Otaku, this response of yours is truly idiotic. To equate God with Father Christmas just goes to show that you accept the inane ramblings of the current saints of 'New Atheism' (i.e. Harris, Dawkins, Dennett and their ilk), and haven't even made the effort to truly understand what it is you think you are rejecting.

Is this the sad, low level that disbelief has sunk to?

It is not sad it is a fact, belief is something children do so it is time to put away childish things! The stories about god and or gods can be found in the mythology section at your local library!

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AspieOtaku
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29 Mar 2015, 3:04 am

Oldavid
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29 Mar 2015, 10:47 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

I'm an atheist who believes mostly in free will.

Hmmm. What is it and where did you get it?

Oldavid
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29 Mar 2015, 11:00 am

This, Lintar, might be interesting to you:

http://www.sjcrothers.plasmaresources.com/PhD.html

And his criticism of "Black Holes":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... RsGPq77X0Q

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