Do You See Into The Spiritual Realm?

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Science can't even Reliably Measure and Replicate the Human experience of Emotions.

Science can't even Reliably Measure and Replicate the Process of How Human Consciousness actually works.

i enjoy Science but it is only good at what it can and will reliably measure and replicate in terms of Existence, overall.

Overall, considering Consciousness is our existence; Art is much Better at describing Our Inner Universe than Science
ever will as it just doesn't have a tool to reliably measure and replicate the Essence of our Existence; Yes, our
Conscious experience.

There are so many dimensions of Conscious Experience. There are so many Human Potentials left Untapped.

Some folks are color blind;

Some folks are mind blind;

Some folks cannot even read
Emotions into what eyes have to speak;

And Yet we try to put concrete shoes on all the potentials
of Life that NOT EVERY ONE experiences. Count me out; if i had listened
to what Science insisted my Future would be based on Averages i'd be DEAD;
THREE TIMES WEAKER; SO MUCH SLOWER; WITH JUST A GRINCH SIZED HEART.

THE SPIRITUAL REALM IS OUR CONSCIOUS REALITY.

It is diverse as every color of every flower; every reflection
of every grain of sand that either shimmers or stays dim.

i see 'Dead People' who are living without a fuller 'spiritual realm'
most every where i go; they are missing parts now like Art of heART
and Art of smART; all they may left with is 's' and 'm' of 'he'; sort of like 'Republican Politics';
or in general, people who scam others for material gains; there is so much more of that now
that the opportunities present themselves online; 'Good spirits' are getting harder to find; that is what i seek.

Yep; there are plenty of Ghosts and Demons Wandering the Earth with UFO Souls as metaphor of course that
is as real as real gets in the Inner Universe of What We Experience and attempt to articulate with others.

The Flesh and Blood Spirit is as real as what we Exercise as our moving, connecting, co-creating potentials.

And every time i think of the 'pathetic attempts' to describe the Emotional and Sensory Experiences of life
in 'that Old King James Version of a Bible'; i am reminded of the Round Table of Old White Angry Men at the
Hardee's Breakfast Bar that exclude any Female input for their View of their Subjective World as it exists.

Haha; the Human condition Still wears diapers in what our potentials really are; i venture to sing most of those
diapers are still of the male variety as they fear what lurks inside; both Shadow and Flowers that Stand to Bloom
without fear.

Emotional/Sensory Realm Equals Spiritual Realm Equals the Subjective Experience of our Inner Experiences;
Some folks are incapable of actually feeling and sensing Love and freely giving and sharing Love at ALL.

So many kinds of disabilities; so much poverty of Human Flesh and Blood HeART, Spirit, and Soul; so many
that are not labeled at all. This is a much Bigger Issue than just Ghosts, Demons, and UFO's; this is an existential
issue of Black Abyss thru Purgatory Shades of Grey to Feeling and Sensing Unlimited Colors beyond Rainbows of Heaven now; That Much Science can at least light up on a Brain scan to see there is a difference; a shallow view; never the less, different.

"To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour"

-William Blake

That's seeing into the Real Spiritual
Realm; it is an exercise of Human Potential fulfilled.

Again; Ghosts, Demons, and UFO's; that's no different
to me than what Antiquated Bibles have to offer of Human Potential.

Neuroscience currently suggests we all Hallucinate our Realities as we go based on what
We Hallucinate Before; i will much rather Create Beyond Rainbow Colors of Heaven and
experience what William Blake suggests is possible than still in live in 3 Black and White Channels of Life;

So, i for one; just do it.

i listened to so much naysaying about Human Emotions being mush and
all of what human limits were here based on Science; my results; my effective results now
are empirically measurable and irrefutable; no need to go over them again; at least not for me.

It's the difference between living and Living in color as to whether or We Truly See, Be, and Do a Spiritual Realm that's Real.

I don't understand how the people who proclaim, "this hasn't been proved by science" seem to think that we human scientists are at the pinnacle of understanding the universe and there cannot be left any unanswered questions.

So many of the truly great innovations in our scientific understanding were ridiculed as totally untrue at the time they were proposed. I was trained as a scientist, particularly in biology. There were things taught as "true" and scientific when I was in college and graduate school and even afterwards when I was teaching college, that have been found to be false. And/or things that were ridiculed then and have been found to be true now. And that is just in my lifetime.

So how can anyone say that because something has not been proven by this time period, it must be false forever?

^

That's why I'd say this is a fundamentally political topic. This sort of derangement only happens with things that are perceived to have potentially outsized impacts on our way of doing things. It also brings out the 'woke' among us on their mission to correct the blasphemy.

I've answered a lot of this already, with no comments, questions, or replies of acknowledgement. I'll repeat myself for clarity despite the fact this is Mountain Goat's thread.

Background:
To the best of my knowledge, MG began this thread in response to comments on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=384093&p=8434731#p8434731. Here, Techstep and MG both made contributions about their acceptance of a spiritual realm, but members' replies were quite dismissive, suggesting that people with spiritual beliefs need psychiatric care.

People are allowed to have opposite opinions, but it seems to me that MG felt insulted by an insinuation that he was "wrong", or insane, whereas those who disbelieve in a spiritual realm are "right" and "logical".

In response to the first thread, MG began a new thread. He asked whether physicalists might actually be disadvantaged or disabled, rather than people who have spiritual experiences and / or believe they are possible. It appears that his question was considered hostile or condescending, whereas prior assertions that he was disabled (in fact, mentally ill), went unchallenged.

MG's Questions:

MG asked three main questions.

1) Do you see into the spiritual realm? (Presumably, this requires yes or no answers)
2) Can you see demons, angels, ghosts, UFO's etc? (Presumably, this requires yes or no answers)
The examples include "etc." Therefore, his list is not exhaustive and it is not specific to religious experience.
3) He then asks if those who can't see the spiritual realm should be considered disabled.

How to read this question critically:

1) Define "the spiritual":
"relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things".

Spiritual means immaterial things. Another word for this is metaphysical. Metaphysics is the study of substance vs. attribute, and the study of that which is beyond physics.

2) Define "disabled":
"(of a person) having a physical or mental condition that limits movements, senses, or activities".

I think MG was suggesting that people who lack a "sixth sense", have fewer sensory abilities than those who do.


My replies:

I didn't answer MG's questions straight away.

I offered a book recommendation suggesting that autistic people do have heightened sensory abilities.
(No reply from the disbelievers).

I linked two videos explaining metaphysics, for the sake of conversation and critical debate.
(No reply from the disbelievers).

I defined "spiritual" as being immaterial, and pointed out it does not necessarily include religion or gods.
(Fnord is still asking what it means).

I stated that I do not believe people are "disabled" for not having spiritual beliefs and experiences.
(I continue to feel judged, as if I have insulted the disbelievers -- which I have not).

I gave examples of "unseen" matter, which was later determined to exist (e.g., light waves, sound waves, germs).
(No reply from the disbelievers).

I gave examples of historical philosophical thought on the matter of metaphysics.
(I was asked not to intellectualise).

I admitted that yes, I've had a few "spiritual" experiences myself and I was not delusional according to Fnord's list.
(No reply)

I stated that I have had psychic premonitions which came true (I could verify).
(I was told that my own verification doesn't count, because I need a scientific inquiry).

I stated that others have verified my experiences, and that there was no logical explanation.
(I was asked "who verified?" .... Am I supposed to post names of my personal friends for proper validation?)

I suggested several times that other people are more than free to have opposing opinions.

I asked that people with opposing opinions not insult believers with jokes, tropes or sarcasm.
("Unicorns dancing in a field of rainbows" , "little green men") -- paraphrased from Tp
("These experiences are the result of delusions, drug trips, and mental illness") -- paraphrased from Fnord

.. Which brings us back to MG's question, and his reason for starting the thread.

I suggested that PPR be renamed PR (Politics and Religion).
Philosophical discourse seems impossible on WP without people shutting down the topic with condescension.

All of the responses against "spirituality" have argued for science and empirical evidence, which is fine.

However,

No member who disbelieves in "spirituality" has shown interest in discussing the topic or learning through dialogue.

No member who disbelieves has said "Tell me more about your experience", to someone who has shared.

No member who disbelieves has said "That's an interesting point", (etc.) or responded to the believers.


In Response to Fnord:

"Please answer my previous questions regarding the alleged "Spiritual Realm", its properties, and its operating principles".

Properties --
I'm not sure if you see the irony in your question. It presents a categorical error. "Properties" are defined as physical attributes within the scope of scientific, empirical inquiry. Asking one to describe or ascribe "properties" to metaphysical noumena, which by definition are "beyond physical", is nonsensical. It's comparable to me saying "Please list the top ten songs in Paris by contemplating the Anaheim Mighty Ducks". One cannot use empirical methods to describe or explain that which by definition, is not empirical. The burden of proof that you request is illogical.

Operating Principles --
The operating principles of all metaphysics? How long of an answer would you like? See also "Properties". ^

Epistemology --
Your responses suggest that you are attempting to apply an epistemological perspective onto "spirituality". Epistemology of course, refers to the philosophy of knowledge. This is a disingenuous approach. There is no definition of "knowledge" in human history, in any discipline including science or philosophy. You are essentially saying "I know what's right when / because I use science". Science is known to employ poor epistemology, and inductive reasoning is not infallible. Inductive reasoning cannot produce knowledge. For any view to be tenable, we have to solve the problem of induction or rely on an appeal to authority (therefore, creating a logical fallacy which is incorrect). See George Berkeley re: existence being limited to one's own empirical observation. Likewise, probability does not imply causation. Humans know squat about the world around us, or our place in it. Even mathematics and science are proven to be constructs of our imagination. Science proves that science exists, and nothing more. It cannot measure the immeasurable. Your position requires one epistemology to be "true", in your opinion. Why is your epistemology more valid than others'?

Empiricism --
If everything that exists is physical or demonstrable, we should be able to test or analyse the universe and all human concepts empirically, and know the entire cosmos with a theory of physics. Is this possible? Is this applicable to all human experience? To think it is possible for humans to understand the entire universe and its power is (in my opinion, and many others'), ridiculous. Spiritual noumena are subjective by nature. By definition, "spiritual" means "as opposed to material or physical". It's another logical fallacy to suggest the spiritual can be made material for our consumption and review.

Rationalism and Concepts --
Your scepticism is valid, but I have several questions in response. If the immaterial isn't "true" or "possible", what do you make of concepts? Concepts are immaterial and cannot be tested, measured, or proven by empiricism. Do you believe that concepts do not exist? Can they exist independent of science? What then is a concept, an idea or an emotion? How do we know anything exists when it's outside the range of empiricism, except by blind faith? ("I'm sure my chair will remain in the room when I step away, because it's always stayed there before...") All we know is within our personal field of vision, using our senses, a schema of preconceived ideas, and our personal experience, but there is much unknown in the universe. Reality cannot be fully understood, and nor can the immaterial. This is the essence of Plato's forms and his contribution to metaphysics.

Justice --
One example of an immaterial concept is "justice". It is a worldwide concern: studied, valued, sought and debated for millennia. Justice is immaterial and cannot be measured by epistemology or scientific research. You can measure how much money someone has, but that's not a measure of true justice. Your measure could demonstrate economic inequality, but not justice. Nevertheless, we have "justice systems" in every country of the world. It would be illogical to say we organise law, equality, court, and justice around a nonexistent concept -- just because it cannot be measured or categorised with empirical data.

Morality --
Another concept that cannot be measured by empiricism is morality or "goodness" vs. "badness". Who quantifies this? How do we measure good and bad, or right and wrong? Even scientists make choices they believe are "good" or "bad" for their research. These concepts can't be defined and aren't reducible. For example: Scientist A says "X is good for Y ..." What is Y good for? If Y is good for Z, who determines if Z is good or bad? How do we account for these decisions? They are often based on intuition and a priori beliefs (see Immanuel Kant), deemed to be of human consensus. Where do we learn this system? How is it validated?

Summary:
In the absence of evidence to support every possible opinion, every concept is equally possible. It is intellectually disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Questions for Fnord:
You admit to attending church and holding spiritual beliefs. You said recently you were married to an atheist "once and only once", suggesting that you do not espouse atheism. Assuming you believe in God, how do you measure that truth?

Have you conducted empirical experiments to support your spiritual belief in God?

Is God not a manifestation of metaphysics?



How are "abstract creativity" and your empirical worldview consistent?

You are admitting to the inclusion of "abstraction" and "creativity" in physics, neither of which can be measured empirically.

Abstract means that something is "existing in thought or as an idea", but not having a physical or concrete demonstrable existence. You seem to be contradicting yourself in your beliefs against metaphysical noumena by admitting that abstractions and creativity are required.

In summary again:

Sorry for the long ramble. I have to approach big questions like MG's systematically. It's how my mind works when considering philosophy. MG's question can be answered with classical philosophy as I've tried to do above, or it can be answered very simply in the ways that I and others have done, via the sharing of personal experiences, research, or belief.

I'll state once again that I have no problem with anyone being a physicalist, or denying angels, demons, UFOs and other experiences. My issue with this topic is, as TechStep has stated more eloquently, that disagreement should be informed on either side, and should be respectful and directed via dialogue. Mocking members, mocking beliefs, talking about "little green entities" (paraphrase), and suggesting that people including our own membership are mentally ill for having different experiences ... is not OK. If one disbelieves in these concepts they can say so respectfully, answer MG's questions, or move on rather than ignoring everything that the other posters have shared.

My own psychic experiences are phenomenal and uncanny. They've occurred since I was little. I've already explained that I can't force them and I certainly can't explain why or how they happen, but they do. I won't venture to share examples on this forum because I fear I'll be ridiculed as others have been. Certainly, 95% of my life is free of psychic experience but the ones that have occurred are validated by myself (yes my own judgement counts, just as yours does when you have experiences), and very often my premonitions are verified by friends and family.

We know from science that time and space are the same entity. We know there are wormholes in time, and that time is fluid. I have no idea how or why these phenomena happen for me, or how / why other people experience a spiritual realm as they describe, but I know that mine are legitimate. There are charlatans in the world but I would never extort or con people, and I wouldn't pretend to be more than I am --- a very well read philosopher who is autistic and has a history of extremely accurate visions.

Last edited by IsabellaLinton on 21 Jan 2020, 11:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

One thing I'd add for people as far as places to look - for anyone genuinely curious, spend a good - I mean properly good (at least a week or two) amount of time with the NDE literature. Spend about the same amount of time on psychedelic experiences that push the edge of possibility and then spend a week or so on the types of things that the more central Solomonic and Hermetic authors (thinking authors and academics who also practice) are doing. If you find the last two too dodgy for your taste at least do the first. Entirely too much happens that doesn't mesh with reductive materialist explanations, and what I mean by that is not going to jump out or register if simply substituting in a draw from memory what you think you've heard and what you think might have rendered it an open and shut case that you heard from a friend or saw in a blog a while back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq1fW-jIRms

i surely don't mind risk being ridiculed here for the Nature of the Spiritual Experiences
of my Life as that applies to even living at all. One CANNOT successfully ridicule someone
who has actually been to hell on Earth; it's laughable to think it is possible at all. Nor will
anyone truly successfully take someone out of Heaven on Earth Below Sticks and Stones when
they Manufacture Heaven within For Real as even Science Shows that Autotelic Flow is no Fluke or Woo;
sure, "Wu Wei" in general, but no Woo.

Okay; two years into the Suicide Disease, Type Two Trigeminal Neuralgia as Part of the 66-Month Journey
of that Human Physical Disease assessed as literally the Suicide Disease and a Pain worse than the real torture
of Crucifixion for those who think that so-called 'Jesus' had it rough; my Stint lasted from Wake to Sleep as a Shut-in
in my Bedroom For an Entirety of 66 Months along with 18 other Medical Disorders that one day just went away on
a Sunny Beach Afternoon; all the pain and numb just melted away; assessed as A REAL MEDICAL MIRACLE by
the professionals attending to me at that date; that's nothing new; incurable disease goes into remission
and into the files of medically unexplained recoveries; there was no prognosis for recovery for me before
that day.

But that's not the really strange part that literally likely saved my Life.

You see there is pain and there is PAIN THAT MOST PEOPLE CANNOT FATHOM THAT EVEN EXISTS;

Where a Migraine Headache is relative Heaven in Comparison or someone burning the Skin of Your Body with a Flame.

For me there was no choice but to put a Metal Chain Hidden in a Basket of a Bicycle in case the pain got so bad
there was no other choice but to end it all; i already attempted to Jump off a bridge at the beginning; at least
4 MG of Ativan was enough to put me to sleep after that for my only escape from Pain and Numb; so i survived
another 2 Years; picking a tree out on a named road far enough from Home where hopefully no one would ever
find me; feeding the Vultures giving my Life some ending Purpose; Just a Plan; Just in Case it all got even worse.

Then that Night my Wife and Her Dream; as she woke and said that was so strange it was Spring of 2010 and
she said she was Hanging Christmas Tree Ornaments with Her deceased Grandmother Naming the Road that
she Never mentioned before that i had picked out that day.

i had lost all Hope in Life; but that surely proved to me at least that there was more to life than i was
Perceiving then to be fully possible and true; It was enough to carry me through the Full 66 Months until
i recovered as the 33 Month Tail-end of that was Spent on this Website starting Thanks Giving Day of
2010; my first ability in 33 Months to even effectively use my eyes for any reading at all to tolerate
a Mountain of Pain for every word i read/wrote here; just two inches from a screen on the dimmest
setting as prescription shades only made the pain that much worse; i still could not tolerate any noise at all.

There was never a second i could be totally sure i would make it to the next second of existence;
and indeed that Chain Still stayed in that Bicycle Basket although plans of ending it all never came again
through all that pain and numb.

I for one have 100 Percent proof enough for myself that a Force Much Greater than what we see that
is meaningful as Mind of all that is exists; that guides me now intuitively in Autotelic Flow i for one Generate
and Co-Create as my existence now; i didn't learn to do anything of what i do out of books or instructions;
3 College Degrees and 33 Years of pay for work prepared me for nothing of what it would take to survive and
heal then; it all came intuitively from Within; fortunate was i to have a Wife who is capable of connecting to more
than what she has read in book or by instruction too; Her Mind is free not weighted down by the expectations of
a Society that is so confining; no different than mine now; We are Free; our Human Potentials are expanded
for we are
not weighted
down by what
is spoon-fed now from Birth;
Mechanical Cognition Limits Social
Empathic Mind Including what one
may Describe as the Spiritual Realm of
Life too including Original Art in Creativity
too; Our Innate, Instinctual, and Intuitive Greater Potentials too;
When one Limits their Existence to the Realm of Mechanical Cognition
Reasoning mind they shut down so much of their Human Potential that is
both Magic
and Miracle
in comparison
of all the Colors of
Life that are experienced now;
you see i am coming from Flow now;
i don't need to research a damn thing as
i go; for this Mind Within is beyond infinity as it connects to all;
sure; those are all metaphors for something so much deeper that words will ever convey now;
Sad for anyone now who misses out on greater Human Potentials failing to at least attempt to seek and find them now;
it's Like Living in Paradise compared to a Desert with just Sand and No Water at all; been there done it ain't going back...

Yep; a Dentist Drill Pain in Your Right Eye and Ear that No Drug Will touch is kinda Rough;
What Led to the Trip to the Bridge was the Dysautonomia that no longer allowed my
Autonomic Nervous System to Properly Synch my Blood Pressure with my Heart
Rate; None of this was diagnosed until 2 Years or so later than the start of
2008; the Sjogren's Syndrome with eyes no longer making tears was
additionally challenging but every time i tried to lay down and
go to sleep to escape the pain my Heart Raced to take
Blood to my Brain; an Alpha Blocker provided one
Hour of very Cardboard Shallow Sleep for
the first 35 of 40 days; and the last
5 days of 40 nothing worked
anymore and somehow
i managed the strength as
i couldn't make it to the shower
on my own to grab the Car Keys to
find a place to end it all a Bridge but i was
too weak to get out of the Car; my Sister Miraculously
Found me at the Bottom of the Bridge took me and i struggled
to find a way to escape and jump of the Shallow end of a River Board
Walk; then she drove over 80 MPH on a Country road threatening to kill
us both as she had Asperger's Syndrome too and it's kinda hard to find
a friend outside of family and living without a brother was too much for her to bear.
i said no and eventually agreed to go to the Hospital and the Ativan Put me down and saved
my life; sure for what that was worth through the full 66 Months of the Pain; it started two Years
before that too with the Sjogren's Syndrome as it affected the Nerves of my Feet then too as we Watched
the Movie "Happy Feet" then in 2006 and i couldn't even bear to touch the Floor with
my Shoes on; so many years to get that diagnosed; the first sign of the Eye Pain was
i couldn't stand Colors on TV and then all i could stand is black and white TV; all of this
Related to 11 years of Chronic Stress from 1996 to 2007 before the worst
of the Pain came in January of 2008; last two Years spent in fight or
flight Adrenaline constant stress; all work related all those years;
but it was all worth it for i escaped all of the Spoon-Fed real
Mush of Culture that was holding all of my Human Potential
Back; Pain and Numb; Disease and Disorder will
a be a Gift too; it's just Hard to see when
you are living in Hell on Earth now;
Heaven makes the rest of
the deal more than
worth it
Eternally now.

Last edited by aghogday on 21 Jan 2020, 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Also for people who've been beating up a bit on psychedelics, flow and altered states, or the veracity of what's there Jamie Wheal's gotten to be a pretty good expositor on this topic in the last several years. Rebel Wisdom often throws him on along side Jordan Greenhall and Daniel Schmachtenberger in their discussions of sociology and his input's usually pretty interesting there as well.

I feel like this thread has gotten a little off track. Maybe that is only my perception. I read an article and I thought it might be worth talking about.

“Homogenous groups don’t just underperform, they do so in predictable ways. When you are surrounded by similar people, you are not just likely to share each other’s blind spots, but to reinforce them. This is sometimes called “mirroring”. Encircled by people who reflect your picture of reality, and whose picture you reflect back to them, it is easy to become ever more confident of judgements that are incomplete or downright wrong. Certainty becomes inversely correlated with accuracy.”

“Those in the two groups had very different experiences of the task. Those in diverse teams found the discussion cognitively demanding. There was plenty of debate and disagreement, because different perspectives were aired. They typically came to the right decisions, but were not wholly certain about them. The fact that they had such a full and frank discussion of the case meant that they were exposed to its inherent complexity.

But what of the homogeneous teams? Their experiences was radically different. They found the session more agreeable because they spent most of the time, well, agreeing. They were mirroring each other’s perspectives. And although they were more likely to be wrong, they were far more confident about being right. … And this hints at the danger of homogeneous groups: they are more likely to form judgements that combine excessive confidence with grave error.”

That's Jonathan Haidt's big concern these days with academia and politics.

Thank you for posting that video, ts. He raised some key points about the behaviour of consciousness.

Thanks for the Reference; Just more
Evidence that all of 'this' is really real;
The Transcendent Spiritual Realm Within that is available with Paths that work to yes; generally speaking, the "same place"; All Natural For me; but Yes, so many Years of practice to get to where i am now and actually "stay here" without Fail; Moving Meditation in Flow and Stream of Consciousness Meditative Writing in Flow Keep me 'here' continuously now;
practically
Free
of Charge..