Christians: bad for society.
13 Nov 2010, 1:11 am
Inuyasha wrote:
Jookia wrote:
I have to disagree with you, Christians are people who follow Christianity. All you've done in the first post is argue about how Christianity makes the world worse, not how the Christians themselves make the world worse.
That explains why people make so many donations to charities through religious groups and why religious groups tend to do a lot better at keeping things organized when it comes to disaster relief than the secular Government.
You don't just think that the issue is that the public sector is full of institutional problems? After all, it is not as if religion is the private sector.
13 Nov 2010, 2:23 am
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
91 wrote:
The entire article is about the philosophy of a perfect being; you clearly did not read it.
I read it. It was about the philosophy of a perfect being. It had nothing to do with cognition.
Of course it did. Here is a paragraph from the text on the subject:
As Greg Bahnsen and others have pointed out, APBT undermines the glory and might of God by limiting His power and attributes to what we humans think of Him. If Christianity is really true, then God is not simply a being whose properties are contingent upon human cognition; rather, He as the Creator of the world is entirely independent in both existence and essence from what we as humans think of Him.
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Actually, you tried a comparative analysis. I objected to that. In any case, you've really been the one driving that discussion. I mostly rebut, you end up choosing what you feel you want to respond to. I rejected the entire direction you were going from the start.
Yes, I hold that you have not even come close to proving your assertion in any way that should be persuasive to me. You have not argued convincingly that you have rooted your argument in objective truth.
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I don't see why I have to feel that I have to prove a point to every individual. Especially since the evaluation of premises ALWAYS has a subjective component, in that objective weightings are difficult, if not impossible to show.
Then the most a reader can reasonably concluded is that YOU think Christianity is bad for society. From a realist perspective you are simply out voted.
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Thirdly, I gave facts. You can give subjective criticisms, the problem is that our moral language is more than subjective, it is intersubjective, a point I believe was made earlier as well. Most people can have reasonable moral discourse, even though there is a fluctuation in moral standards from society to society.
Inter-subjectivity is not enough to conclude that one billion people are bad for society; otherwise I could make the same claim about you. I would not need to prove it, I could just say that it is Inter-subjectivily true. When it is applied to your position; it hardly seems like a high enough burden of proof does it.
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Basically, if we take both of our claims both as valid, we've both disproven God. Period. So that's why I see your arguments as useless.
Only if I accept that god is not simple; I have demonstrated a reasonable case to think he is not. You just didn't read it.
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
It is not childish to ask that you stay on topic, and the topic is constructed with premises from my worldview.
Yes; because we are not discussing the value of your world-view rather the value of mine.
_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.
13 Nov 2010, 3:39 am
There is this continuous reference to God as a perfect being. Perfect in regard to what? According to the Bible the history of human relations with God keep going wrong in one way or another and require correction which is quite brutal. What kind of a perfect being creates such messes? They are, of course, blamed on an imperfect humanity. But could a perfect being create such an imperfect humanity? Must not God take responsibility for everything?
13 Nov 2010, 3:41 am
Sand wrote:
There is this continuous reference to God as a perfect being. Perfect in regard to what? According to the Bible the history of human relations with God keep going wrong in one way or another and require correction which is quite brutal. What kind of a perfect being creates such messes? They are, of course, blamed on an imperfect humanity. But could a perfect being create such an imperfect humanity? Must not God take responsibility for everything?
I am talking about God being a perfect being in relation to the definition of what the concept of God is and how it therefor must function.
The problem of evil is a massive discussion and probably not one to be had in this thread.
_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.
13 Nov 2010, 3:47 am
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is this continuous reference to God as a perfect being. Perfect in regard to what? According to the Bible the history of human relations with God keep going wrong in one way or another and require correction which is quite brutal. What kind of a perfect being creates such messes? They are, of course, blamed on an imperfect humanity. But could a perfect being create such an imperfect humanity? Must not God take responsibility for everything?
I am talking about God being a perfect being in relation to the definition of what the concept of God is and how it therefor must function.
The problem of evil is a massive discussion and probably not one to be had in this thread.
In other words you accept the frequent brutality exhibited throughout history as a demonstration of His perfection. He is, after all, known by His works and must be so judged. If the definition of God is through the function of His perfection and His function, as er have observed it, is not perfect, then if there is something in control here it seems not to meet that definition and is not perfect
13 Nov 2010, 3:52 am
Sand wrote:
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is this continuous reference to God as a perfect being. Perfect in regard to what? According to the Bible the history of human relations with God keep going wrong in one way or another and require correction which is quite brutal. What kind of a perfect being creates such messes? They are, of course, blamed on an imperfect humanity. But could a perfect being create such an imperfect humanity? Must not God take responsibility for everything?
I am talking about God being a perfect being in relation to the definition of what the concept of God is and how it therefor must function.
The problem of evil is a massive discussion and probably not one to be had in this thread.
In other words you accept the frequent brutality exhibited throughout history as a demonstration of His perfection. He is, after all, known by His works and must be so judged.
You really seem to want that discussion about the problem of evil. Suffice to say I believe God must have morally sufficient reasons.
_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.
13 Nov 2010, 3:53 am
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is this continuous reference to God as a perfect being. Perfect in regard to what? According to the Bible the history of human relations with God keep going wrong in one way or another and require correction which is quite brutal. What kind of a perfect being creates such messes? They are, of course, blamed on an imperfect humanity. But could a perfect being create such an imperfect humanity? Must not God take responsibility for everything?
I am talking about God being a perfect being in relation to the definition of what the concept of God is and how it therefor must function.
The problem of evil is a massive discussion and probably not one to be had in this thread.
In other words you accept the frequent brutality exhibited throughout history as a demonstration of His perfection. He is, after all, known by His works and must be so judged.
You really seem to want that discussion about the problem of evil. Suffice to say I believe God must have morally sufficient reasons.
In other words you confess ignorance of the basic nature of God and are not qualified to claim anything about His nature.
13 Nov 2010, 3:55 am
Sand wrote:
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is this continuous reference to God as a perfect being. Perfect in regard to what? According to the Bible the history of human relations with God keep going wrong in one way or another and require correction which is quite brutal. What kind of a perfect being creates such messes? They are, of course, blamed on an imperfect humanity. But could a perfect being create such an imperfect humanity? Must not God take responsibility for everything?
I am talking about God being a perfect being in relation to the definition of what the concept of God is and how it therefor must function.
The problem of evil is a massive discussion and probably not one to be had in this thread.
In other words you accept the frequent brutality exhibited throughout history as a demonstration of His perfection. He is, after all, known by His works and must be so judged.
You really seem to want that discussion about the problem of evil. Suffice to say I believe God must have morally sufficient reasons.
In other words you confess ignorance of the basic nature of God and are not qualified to claim anything about His nature.
If you want this discussion. Please create a topic on the problem of evil and I will explain my position there. Or PM me and I'll send you some stuff on the subject.
_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.
13 Nov 2010, 3:58 am
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is this continuous reference to God as a perfect being. Perfect in regard to what? According to the Bible the history of human relations with God keep going wrong in one way or another and require correction which is quite brutal. What kind of a perfect being creates such messes? They are, of course, blamed on an imperfect humanity. But could a perfect being create such an imperfect humanity? Must not God take responsibility for everything?
I am talking about God being a perfect being in relation to the definition of what the concept of God is and how it therefor must function.
The problem of evil is a massive discussion and probably not one to be had in this thread.
In other words you accept the frequent brutality exhibited throughout history as a demonstration of His perfection. He is, after all, known by His works and must be so judged.
You really seem to want that discussion about the problem of evil. Suffice to say I believe God must have morally sufficient reasons.
In other words you confess ignorance of the basic nature of God and are not qualified to claim anything about His nature.
If you want this discussion. Please create a topic on the problem of evil and I will explain my position there. Or PM me and I'll send you some stuff on the subject.
That's merely an evasion to answer my question and not acceptable.
13 Nov 2010, 4:02 am
Sand
I don't really see it that way. If you want an answer I have told you what you should do. I have stated that problem of evil is too big for this thread. It does not have a great deal to do with the discussion either. The discussion that took place on the nature of God had to do with how objective values can exist at all. That itself was off topic; since it was an attack on the Christian view of the subject; when the claim was made by an atheist and was his to establish. To now expect me to discuss the nature of God itself in this thread does not really have much to do with the subject. Since Christians are not responsible for all of the evil in the world; its place in the universe is not really relevant to this thread.
Unless of course you would like to blame Christians for that too?
_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.
13 Nov 2010, 4:14 am
91 wrote:
Sand
I don't really see it that way. If you want an answer I have told you what you should do. I have stated that problem of evil is too big for this thread. It does not have a great deal to do with the discussion either. The discussion that took place on the nature of God had to do with how objective values can exist at all. That itself was off topic; since it was an attack on the Christian view of the subject; when the claim was made by an atheist and was his to establish. To now expect me to discuss the nature of God itself in this thread does not really have much to do with the subject. Since Christians are not responsible for all of the evil in the world; its place in the universe is not really relevant to this thread.
Unless of course you would like to blame Christians for that too?
I don't really see it that way. If you want an answer I have told you what you should do. I have stated that problem of evil is too big for this thread. It does not have a great deal to do with the discussion either. The discussion that took place on the nature of God had to do with how objective values can exist at all. That itself was off topic; since it was an attack on the Christian view of the subject; when the claim was made by an atheist and was his to establish. To now expect me to discuss the nature of God itself in this thread does not really have much to do with the subject. Since Christians are not responsible for all of the evil in the world; its place in the universe is not really relevant to this thread.
Unless of course you would like to blame Christians for that too?
It's a very simple question and it was you who brought in the perfection of God as an element of discussion. Christianity has as one of its fundamental principles that God exists and is perfect and I am merely trying to see how that equates to history as we know it and history as described in the Biblical text. If you cannot simply and clearly indicate how a perfect being can be responsible for His omniscient creation of such clear imperfection then the whole basis for your support of His existence ceases to exist. And by that Christianity also has no firm foundation.
If you must obfuscate to escape answering then I cannot have any confidence in your proposals.
13 Nov 2010, 4:20 am
Sand wrote:
91 wrote:
Sand
I don't really see it that way. If you want an answer I have told you what you should do. I have stated that problem of evil is too big for this thread. It does not have a great deal to do with the discussion either. The discussion that took place on the nature of God had to do with how objective values can exist at all. That itself was off topic; since it was an attack on the Christian view of the subject; when the claim was made by an atheist and was his to establish. To now expect me to discuss the nature of God itself in this thread does not really have much to do with the subject. Since Christians are not responsible for all of the evil in the world; its place in the universe is not really relevant to this thread.
Unless of course you would like to blame Christians for that too?
I don't really see it that way. If you want an answer I have told you what you should do. I have stated that problem of evil is too big for this thread. It does not have a great deal to do with the discussion either. The discussion that took place on the nature of God had to do with how objective values can exist at all. That itself was off topic; since it was an attack on the Christian view of the subject; when the claim was made by an atheist and was his to establish. To now expect me to discuss the nature of God itself in this thread does not really have much to do with the subject. Since Christians are not responsible for all of the evil in the world; its place in the universe is not really relevant to this thread.
Unless of course you would like to blame Christians for that too?
It's a very simple question and it was you who brought in the perfection of God as an element of discussion. Christianity has as one of its fundamental principles that God exists and is perfect and I am merely trying to see how that equates to history as we know it and history as described in the Biblical text. If you cannot simply and clearly indicate how a perfect being can be responsible for His omniscient creation of such clear imperfection then the whole basis for your support of His existence ceases to exist. And by that Christianity also has no firm foundation.
If you must obfuscate to escape answering then I cannot have any confidence in your proposals.
If that is the case, do as I asked and you will get your answer?
_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.
13 Nov 2010, 4:29 am
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
91 wrote:
Sand
I don't really see it that way. If you want an answer I have told you what you should do. I have stated that problem of evil is too big for this thread. It does not have a great deal to do with the discussion either. The discussion that took place on the nature of God had to do with how objective values can exist at all. That itself was off topic; since it was an attack on the Christian view of the subject; when the claim was made by an atheist and was his to establish. To now expect me to discuss the nature of God itself in this thread does not really have much to do with the subject. Since Christians are not responsible for all of the evil in the world; its place in the universe is not really relevant to this thread.
Unless of course you would like to blame Christians for that too?
I don't really see it that way. If you want an answer I have told you what you should do. I have stated that problem of evil is too big for this thread. It does not have a great deal to do with the discussion either. The discussion that took place on the nature of God had to do with how objective values can exist at all. That itself was off topic; since it was an attack on the Christian view of the subject; when the claim was made by an atheist and was his to establish. To now expect me to discuss the nature of God itself in this thread does not really have much to do with the subject. Since Christians are not responsible for all of the evil in the world; its place in the universe is not really relevant to this thread.
Unless of course you would like to blame Christians for that too?
It's a very simple question and it was you who brought in the perfection of God as an element of discussion. Christianity has as one of its fundamental principles that God exists and is perfect and I am merely trying to see how that equates to history as we know it and history as described in the Biblical text. If you cannot simply and clearly indicate how a perfect being can be responsible for His omniscient creation of such clear imperfection then the whole basis for your support of His existence ceases to exist. And by that Christianity also has no firm foundation.
If you must obfuscate to escape answering then I cannot have any confidence in your proposals.
If that is the case, do as I asked and you will get your answer?
The first move of someone to avoid answering a question that cannot be honestly and openly answered is to shunt the questioner to a book or a library or into some obscure maze of long confusing study to get rid of the unanswerable questioner. It is a dishonest debating ploy and I am very sorry but it merely indicates to me that you cannot simply and clearly provide an answer. I can only conclude you simply do not know and probably do not want to know.
13 Nov 2010, 6:00 am
Since I have not received an answer to this extremely important question I can only conclude that an answer does not exist. To go back to the original query of the thread, if it cannot be clearly indicated that God is perfect then it is a valid assumption that He is not. This makes quite good sense in that the world is imperfect. If evil were the only problem that would be bad enough but the many imperfections that obviously penetrate the world other than evil indicate that an existent God is not only imperfect but incompetent. If God is incompetent then the Christian faith is asking people to have absolute trust in an incompetent God who fumbles, makes terrible errors, and causes all sorts of troubles. It's bad enough for someone who is not religious to find terrible difficulties in life but people without faith can at least accept that the universe was not created for them and one must make the best of a bad situation. But to conceive that some incompetent superbeing purposely made a world that , to all observations, is more or less out to kill him unless he takes great precautions creates a very negative attitude towards such a monstrous being. For a religion, such as Christianity, to require not only belief but total abeyance to such a being is a very bad thing indeed.
13 Nov 2010, 6:16 am
Sand wrote:
Since I have not received an answer to this extremely important question I can only conclude that an answer does not exist.
Waiting on divine revelation are you Sand? I didn't not say no answer existed or that I would not answer your question. I only said I will no do it here and I explained why.
Sand wrote:
If evil were the only problem that would be bad enough but the many imperfections that obviously penetrate the world other than evil indicate that an existent God is not only imperfect but incompetent. If God is incompetent then the Christian faith is asking people to have absolute trust in an incompetent God who fumbles, makes terrible errors, and causes all sorts of troubles.
See above^
Sand wrote:
It's bad enough for someone who is not religious to find terrible difficulties in life but people without faith can at least accept that the universe was not created for them and one must make the best of a bad situation
Perseverance is one of the main aspects of the Bible. You can argue that it is a false belief (I would not agree with this for a moment) but not that Christians will not persevere against adversity or hopelessness.
He that endureth to the end shall be saved.
--Matthew 10:22
Let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
--Galatians 6:9
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
--James 1:12
Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
--Revelation 2:10
Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy." - 1 Peter 4:12-13
"My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing." - James 1:2-4 NKJV
My Favorite:
"And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope." - Romans 5:3-4 NKJV
_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.
13 Nov 2010, 6:31 am
91 wrote:
Sand wrote:
Since I have not received an answer to this extremely important question I can only conclude that an answer does not exist.
Waiting on divine revelation are you Sand? I didn't not say no answer existed or that I would not answer your question. I only said I will no do it here and I explained why.
Sand wrote:
If evil were the only problem that would be bad enough but the many imperfections that obviously penetrate the world other than evil indicate that an existent God is not only imperfect but incompetent. If God is incompetent then the Christian faith is asking people to have absolute trust in an incompetent God who fumbles, makes terrible errors, and causes all sorts of troubles.
See above^
Sand wrote:
It's bad enough for someone who is not religious to find terrible difficulties in life but people without faith can at least accept that the universe was not created for them and one must make the best of a bad situation
Perseverance is one of the main aspects of the Bible. You can argue that it is a false belief (I would not agree with this for a moment) but not that Christians will not persevere against adversity or hopelessness.
He that endureth to the end shall be saved.
--Matthew 10:22
Let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
--Galatians 6:9
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
--James 1:12
Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
--Revelation 2:10
Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy." - 1 Peter 4:12-13
"My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing." - James 1:2-4 NKJV
My Favorite:
"And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope." - Romans 5:3-4 NKJV
As I noted your non-answer is not acceptable. It is a simple question and requires a simple answer. Frankly I do not believe you have a reasonable answer.
