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Philologos
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26 Feb 2011, 8:51 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

I think they (pharisaic Rabinical Judism and Christianity) are ways to be Jewish after
the destruction of the temple. Christianity turn out to be less effective
not as a competitive religion, but as a way to stay Jewish.
Isn't there a tradition that Paul studied under Gamaliel?
(he did not seems to have learned much)

-Jake

You can lead a horse to water ...

You know, I know, you teach them, off they go, and a lot of them - go off. Look what Chomsky did to Zellig Harris' transformation concept. Unrecognizable.

I have always felt Paul had the falling between two stools problem. He has Gamaliel, he has all his Greek eddication, and it is not clear, when he is not clear, which head he is arguing out of.

ruveyn
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26 Feb 2011, 10:31 am

Philologos wrote:

I have always felt Paul had the falling between two stools problem. He has Gamaliel, he has all his Greek eddication, and it is not clear, when he is not clear, which head he is arguing out of.

If you ever had Saul/Paul over for dinner it were wise to count the silverware after he left.

Would you buy a used car (or a used religion) from anyone who proudly declares he is all things to all people?"

ruveyn

Philologos
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26 Feb 2011, 11:44 am

Quite seriously, that line is a bit of a puzzlement. Paul [I think on balance he opts for being more Greek] is ennea-1 - that is a no-brainer. They are usually pretty unbending in the rule section.

The all things to all people is straight out of the manual for ennea-3 - the used car salesmen. That style ought be be abjhorrent to Paul, as it is to me [ennea-5, thanks for asking].

The best I can come up with is that somewhere in his training he absorbed it as a Principle for dealing with people. It would be somewhere in his rhetoric class, maybe.

If he got it into his head that making nice and fitting n with people was a VALUE, the statement would make sense.

My mother - ennea-1 but no Saul of Tarsus, she was from Baltimore anyway - was a bit like that. Anybody comes to the house, she is miss congeniality, smiling, agreeing. Then whoever leaves, and maman gives with the highly critical analysis.

leejosepho
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26 Feb 2011, 12:01 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Would you buy a used car ... from anyone who ... declares he is "all things to all people"?

Sure, for he would be one who knows how to help me get what I am after even if not from his own lot.

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JakobVirgil
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26 Feb 2011, 12:50 pm

Saul had a relationship with the high priest eh? <-I have started to mumble when I type.
I think this makes him more likely a sadducee turn christian than an ex-Pharasee.
a Helenised Herodian makes a better fit with his story than a disciple of Gamaliel.
it explains his hatred of christians and his pompous nature of his letters.

-Jake

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26 Feb 2011, 4:14 pm

kxmode wrote:

visagrunt wrote:

I offer you my apology for hurting your feelings.

I accept, without reservation.

I look forward to learning from each other.

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pandabear
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27 Feb 2011, 2:41 pm

Here is the wikipedia entry concerning Jesus and Messianic prophecy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_ ... c_prophecy

I've pasted below a table from the wikipedia article, and put in bold text the specific items that Jewish sources do not see the relevant prophecy as currently fulfilled by Christ.

Quote:

Jewish Interpretation of Sample Messianic Prophecy

The Sanhedrin will be re-established[57][58]
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance.[58][59]
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel[58][60][61]
Jews will return to full Torah observance and practice it.[58]
He will be descended from King David[62] via Solomon[40][63]
The Mashiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God"[58][64]
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership[58][65]
Knowledge of God will fill the world[58][66]
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations[58][67]
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland[58][68]
Death will be swallowed up forever[58][69]
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease[58][69]
All of the dead will rise again. According to the Zohar, the resurrection will take place forty years
after the arrival of Moshiach[58][70]
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness[58][71]
He will be a messenger of peace[58][72]
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel[58][73]
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance[58][74]
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored[58][75]
Weapons of war will be destroyed[58][76]
The Temple will be rebuilt[77] resuming many of the suspended 613 mitzvot.[58]
He will rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.[40][61][78]
He will gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel.[40][79]
He will bring world peace.[40][61][80]
He will influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one God.[40][81]
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together[58][82]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart[58][83]
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful[58][84]

Actually, there are some Christians who regard the creation of the modern nation of Israel as fulfillment of some myriad Bible prophesies mentioned above, and who eagerly look forward to the return of Jesus and all of the spooky things described in John's Revelation.

Last edited by pandabear on 28 Feb 2011, 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

codarac
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27 Feb 2011, 4:59 pm

sartresue wrote:

visagrunt wrote:

kxmode wrote:

I'm a really nice person. Honest.

I believe that is true, kxmode.

And yet when I tell you that you have hurt me, rather than apologize to me and seek my forgiveness you defend your actions.

I ask you to examine your conscience on that particular question. In my faith, G-d can and will forgive all, but only after you have sought forgiveness from those you have wronged.

I am prepared to forgive--you need only seek it, in good faith, to have it from me.

VisaGRANT topic

What a nice guy Mr. Visagrunt is. We all could learn a thing or two here.

I find much of what visagrunt says offensive.
But I am prepared to forgive him if he asks me.

leejosepho
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27 Feb 2011, 5:41 pm

Ah, even Archie Bunker was really a nice guy even in spite of being single-visioned.

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visagrunt
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28 Feb 2011, 1:26 pm

codarac wrote:

I find much of what visagrunt says offensive.
But I am prepared to forgive him if he asks me.

I apologize for offending you.

Disagreements between us are bound to arise. And much of what we say to each other might be objectionable to those who disagree with us. But crossing the line from the objectionable to the offensive is not appropriate, and I apologize for doing so.

If it is not too much trouble, please do PM me and tell me where my statements have crossed that line.

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Philologos
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28 Feb 2011, 1:29 pm

visagrunt,
for the record we have not always seen eye to eye nor do I expect it. But you got a ways to go before offending me, and I do not PLAN on offending you if I can see it coming.

codarac
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28 Feb 2011, 3:23 pm

visagrunt wrote:

codarac wrote:

I find much of what visagrunt says offensive.
But I am prepared to forgive him if he asks me.

Oh, don't worry about it. I was making a semi-flippant point that it is very easy to claim one has been offended and offence is to some extent in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure I have offended many people on this forum. I in turn find many aspects of modern life offensive.

I am sorry if my flippancy offends anybody.

JakobVirgil
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28 Feb 2011, 3:30 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrP6HRWWUAo[/youtube]
please explain this one.

visagrunt
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28 Feb 2011, 5:16 pm

codarac wrote:

I'm just going to chalk that one up to Aspie-blindness!