Homeopathy is stronger than antidepresants/antipsychotics

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visagrunt:

I owe your grace much thanks.

Not only for an exceeding rational and exemplary analysis, a much needed balm around here, And also for a gratefully received insight. For all my early interest in Botany [once a likely career choice] and my dabblings over decades in etymology, I had never gone down a path that led to the aspirin / spiraea connection.

I owe you one.

Greatly daring - have you perchance met a BC homeopath yclept Iain?

Oh boy, I love my programming skills so much.

Disclaimer: I am unable to read that guy's replies, so me not addressing them directly should in no way be considered an endorsement of his opinion. Unless his post says something like "I have been convinced, homeopathy is a waste of money and I should have known better before helping con artists before spreading ignorance and disinformation in this site. Please forgive me for any damages to public health I may have caused because of my bad anti-scientific decisions."

Since the probability philologos would say that is less than the probability you would find a single molecule of active component in a homeopathic remedy, I'll make the guess that he didn't say that.




This is false.

It could be that a remedy is called 'homeopathic' but it is not actually homeopathic by the actual definition. True homeopathic remedies follow the law of infinitesimals and thus are by default frauds because for them to work beyond placebo effect we wold have to destroy all our foundations of the knowledge we have about mater because of just how they have no active component.

Many herbal remedies are given the name homeopathic because ignorant people like the sound of it. Herbal remedies (like the Stramonium X6 we mentioned in this very thread) Do have active components. And since traditional medicine has in the past taken substances from herbs to develop drugs, it is not a shocker that some of these remedies may actually turn out right. The example you mentioned is a herbal remedy.

So, by definition, either [ ALL homeopathic remedies are utter BS and a fraud] or [magical undetectable ghost memories can make water do magic.] pick one.


Placebo effect is an actual effect, but one you can get for free, so paying for placebo effect is falling into fraud.



That's true but I don't see the relevance to this topic?

There is much you do not see.

Not that anybody knows that much.

But still it might be useful if you tried reading something besides the newspapers and did some of your own thinking and investigation.

well then if you have definate proof beyond what you could fool yourself into thinking please provide it.

As if there is any proof that does not rest on assumptions.

Look:

You are free to conclude that I [forget anybody else] am wrong. You are not free to call me self-deluded. You have no basis for such a claim. What I believe about anything I constantly question and check, constantly calling in new data. I do not decide what I want to believe and go hunting evidence.

If you were even close to sincere inquiry I would, as I did with HerrGrimm, who spoke like a human, discuss what I know.

You - talking that way - if I had certificates endorsed by every member of the AMA attesting that rigorous trials proved to trhe satisfaction of the scientific community the efficacy of homeopathy - I would not bother providing it. You would not believe it.

Nor should you. You do not believe in aspirin because the medical community endorses it. You believe because you used it and it worked for you and you expect it to work again.

I have no more interest in convincing you - even if I had the tongue for it, because with most humans it is the blarney that convinces, not the facts - than you have in listening to what I say with openness.

And THAT, if you only knew, is a much deeper insult than your "fool yourself" squib.

if there was such proof i would believe it,
is there? no.

i have a problem with homeopathy because if people believe it holds the same value as real tested medicine they stand the chance of serious self harm or harm of those in their care,
there is plenty of actual evidence that it does not work beyond placebo unless there is actual active ingredients in it.

the reason for that "insult" (in reality i think all humans delude themselves in some way so to call it a "pure" insult would insult myself as well)
is that even when we ask of real evidence none is provided and yet you take a stance where you declare you definately know better in this case.

I said this before elsewhere, but let us rehearse.

A. Different situations and individuals have different standards for evidence.

The evidence needed to get a report into the International Journal of Computational Ornithology is different from what is needed to publish in The Birdman's Annual.

The evidence needed to convince a person of like mind - say Number 1 Son, in my case - is not what it takes to explain to a person of unlike mind - say Vexillifer.

If I have seen something produce an effect - a homeopathic remedy or a linguistic technique - I may be reasonably convinced and yet not have anything I could use [especially since I do not have the gift of persuasion, with which one can convince others even of nonsense]

If I have seen something that I can spread to others of my kind, I may not be able to get it into the journal.

B. Certain groups are very specific as to WHAT will be evidence. Mainline medicine today - not without influence from industry - wants to see statistics showing that out of 100 people, for example 80 will be helped at least a little, 15 unaffected, and only 5 harmed. They do not want medicines that will help 30 people and harm noone.

If we check history and count -

How many people have received prayer and / or homeopathic treatment and gotten better.
How many people have received drugs and / or surgery and gotten better.
How many people have received prayer and / or homeopathic treatment and gotten worse
How many people have received drugs and / or surgery and gotten worse.
How many people have received prayer and / or homeopathic treatment and been unaffected.
How many people have received drugs and / or surgery and been unaffected

The results might be interesting.

It is worth noting that a genuine Classical Homeopath will if appropriate - like if you are not being helped - send you to an alternative practice, much as an MD might steer you to Chiropractic or Physical Therapy.