Same sex marriage

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I was speaking assuming that the majority of prison inmates are rigid in their belief in heterosexuality but not in practice. I agree that some of the few that comprise the genuinely heterosexual will also seek out homosexual love to stem loneliness.

I, too excused prison rape as a bad example because it does not give give us any perspective - it is merely the act but the act is a part of the larger fight to stem loneliness which is why I ended up with prison romance as the example.

I assume you are not facetious, and therefore will point out, you are wrong. Nearly everything taken in the right time in the right amount may be beneficial or at least neutral. ANYTHING taken in the wrong way in the wrong amount is harmful. Single malt Scotch works faster than cool clear spring water, but take enough and both will get you drunk.

Chocolate ice cream: Ssnatched this just fast off the web: "Chocolate ice cream ingredients vary. Traditional homemade recipes combine simple, natural ingredients like eggs, sugar and dairy. Commercially-manufactured chocolate ice cream products may include additional ingredients like preservatives and artificial flavorings."

So.
sugar - in excess, harmful; processed sugar is not a natrural part of the human diet
milk - bovine milk, while not [except in serious excess] that harmful - not right for a human infant, though - is not great for the lactose intolerant and these days may contain all kinds hormone traces
eggs - again, except in excess fine - EXCEPT what are they feeding the hens? That gets in there.
chocolate - a strong stimulant. It can kill dogs [off the web: "The problem, according to veterinary experts, is that eating a speck of chocolate leads a dog to crave more. It can mean that your dog will jump at a opportunity to get any type of chocolate, not knowing that certain chocolates are more lethal than other types. Larger amounts of chocolate, particularly of the most toxic type, can bring about epileptic seizures in some dogs, and in all dogs, can kill."] No, one chocolate cone will not do much to you - but in excess?
AND then, if you did not churn the stuff yourself [Herself does a very nice chocolate ice cream, check out the recipe at America;'s Test Kitchen], there are those unknown additives.

Yes, tobacco works faster than chocolate and affects different people - but NOTHING material is exempt from being "inherently harmful".

I have no moral or legal objections to consenting mutual buggering.

I would not do that for all the money in the Western hemisphere, though.

ruveyn

What if we were to throw in all the money in China?

The standard trope is all the TEA in China.

And - be careful what you ask for, what if you got it?

I was drunk when I made that point. Sorry.

TeaEarlGreyHot -

not a problem - I have yet to find your posts offensive or problematic.

MarketandChurch - missed your post earlier - it has been a broken up evening, Number 1 Son visiting and in and out ant the net down foe a period..

Of course the smoking issue is by no means a perfect parallel - there are few real duplications in social issues except for the ongoing brain differences which are the fundamental tones underlying the specific conflicts.

I do think it beats chocolate ice cream as analogy, though.

On the question of strict versus situational versus optional versus rejected heterosexuality, I would hesitate to make pronouncements Experience shows that is another brain style area - with the Power classes being much more heavily sex driven than the Organizers, who beat the Iconoclasts. VERY visible in fiction writing.

Excuse me, but being interrogated on my sexuality, as if I might be some wanted criminal, when I had barely formed a working concept of it was one of the most traumatic things that have ever happened to me. It was really not nearly as much my sexual orientation, though, as my level of sexual interest in general.

I was an extremely "late bloomer" (I sure have made up for it since), and I hadn't yet put my own feelings together with my academic understanding of procreation and didn't understand just yet why it was important beyond its utility as a method of conception. When I found myself lacking any interest in the opposite sex at all, I became convinced that I didn't have any sexual desires at all. It wasn't that I didn't find women to be approachable. In fact, boys my own age tended to treat me as if I had some sort of disease that I might infect them with.

But then I got out into the world, and I eventually found out that I had just been raised around homophobic, low-bred rednecks, and that was why I had never been attracted to them. It's hard to get excited over an uncouth, beer-breathed, snaggle-toothed yokel who has difficulty stopping himself from talking about how large his penis is (especially when a glance at his trousers finds him wanting).

My god, if I had been raised up here in Raleigh, I would have been unstoppable. The boys up here are regular thoroughbreds; I'll tell you that. And when I say "thoroughbred," I mean that in every sense that you can imagine. But that's getting off into the foggy distance, and I'm really getting a little silly.

The issue is that any manifestation of homophobia at all is poisonous to gay youth. It leaves them filled with anxiety and self-loathing, no matter how kind you try to be about it. There is no such thing as a nice way to be anti-gay, and there is never ever an excuse for it.

Then don't.

But when you do, whether intentionally or not, do you acknowledge that you were wrong and try to change course?

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/fa ... 11-26-2010

When you realize that you are pushing people to take their own lives, do you change your behavior, or do you go on doing the same thing? I keep seeing people like you just going on with the same behavior and attitudes, even when the evidence right in front of you makes it clear that you are destroying people's lives.

It makes me think you just don't care.

Excuse me, let me stop you here for a moment.

What do you define as the "act" of homosexuality? Are you referring to the insertion of one man's penis into the other man's bottom? If so, it is your own morbid imagination that makes you want to assume that all gay men actually do this.

But apparently, in my case, the "act" of being gay was that I didn't spend enough time trying to get under the skirts of women. I was never persecuted for being gay. I was persecuted for not being interested in heterosexual fornication.

This is a lie, though.

Therefore you are throwing out of your community the very people who most need it.

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1997-42590-018



If your reaction to gay men being sexually active with each other is to ban them from your community, the effect is to destroy their network of social support, and this does not cause them to reconsider their sexual behavior or desire to change. In fact, the direct result is a dangerous escalation into unhealthy sexual adventurousness.

And, of course, you don't care. I am aware of that, and this brings me to the central point: the fact that you don't care about the impact that your condemnation has on people is the reason that I find your religion to be filthy, hypocritical and immoral. It isn't complicated. Seriously, this is truly the whole entire reason that I hate you. It is the key to the entire mystery.

The Old Testament instructs you to force women suspected of conceiving in an adulterous affair to have an abortion induced. Numbers 5:11-29. Wait, I remember: you don't have to follow parts of the Bible that go against your morals, do you? Silly me.

It doesn't work that way. Homosexuality is not just a thought in someone's head. It is something that is hardwired at a very deep level. If it were immutable at all, it would not be a thing that could be changed overnight by wishful thinking.

Marriage is actually a set of responsibilities and obligations that you don't appear to entirely understand.

Many gay couples don't even have sex.

So, in your head, if gay people are prevented from adopting babies, there will be more babies because...what is your argument again? The one you don't have?

I can assure you, speaking from experience, that marriage is not a situation for someone who is pathologically selfish, with or without a kid or the possibility of a kid.

So you are making gay people holy by trying to exclude them from holy matrimony? I don't see how that works.

You mean having an intimate partner? Do you even realize how much sacrifice and labor has to go into an intimate relationship? I've had two. I screwed up one because I wasn't willing to sacrifice. I nearly messed up the present one for the same reason, though that crisis is thankfully over.

You have portrayed here not only a very poor understanding of gay people, but you have demonstrated here a profound ignorance of intimate relationships in general. You apparently have no idea what is involved in the day-to-day life of two intimate partners. You have no idea how much emotional energy binds two souls together. You have no idea how deep jealousies can run even over just a hobby or a job. It's also a huge sacrifice of privacy because, once someone really knows you and how you tick, you can't even have private thoughts without your intimate partner knowing in general what you're thinking about.

If I had only your thoughts on this to go by, I would have to conclude that you are not ready to start an intimate relationship at all. You would have no idea what you are getting yourself into. If you are in a relationship right now, I feel pity for whoever is being subjected to your ignorance.

The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychology disagrees with you.

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_ ... er_parents



That's your excuse for everything, isn't it?

My conclusion is that I find your excuses wanting. Nice try, but no cigar.

While I don't believe there is a valid excuse to be anti-gay, I'm going to have to disagree that it's impossible to be nice about it.

We may not like their views, but many anti-gay people are just concerned for people they view as in danger.

Yep. Also, this is gay marriage we're talking about, so being against gay marriage means being against gays raising kids not being against a homosexual orientation. I haven't really seen any proof that a nuclear family is the best thing for kids, but I know for a fact single parent households are detrimental to em so perhaps it's just a matter of having two parents.

I have a friend who came out of the closet relatively late in life, in his thirties. He has a brother who attends an evangelical church, who also believes being gay is a choice. My friend told me how he finally told his brother if being gay is a choice, then you be gay for a second. When his brother said he couldn't because he was born straight, my friend said he replied with he couldn't make that choice, either.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

The "Being gay is a choice" thing is so idiotic it has to be a cheap rationalization rather than genuine stupidity. It's like saying hunger is a choice. Sure we choose to eat, but did we choose to have the desire to eat? And how is eating something different supposed to be harmful to what others prefer to eat anyways?

Like I said earlier in the thread, it doesn't really matter if it's a choice or not. We make tons of legal choices every day.

^^^
Absolutely agree w/ TEGH. I don't believe that it's a choice for most gay people, but even if it is, so what? A lesbian couple is less likely to swap and spread STIs than a heterosexual couple; should we discriminate against those who want to have heterosexual sex on the basis that it spreads disease?

Any couple that is monogamous is not spreading disease through the population regardless of the gender of their partner (and being monogamous is part of the point of marriage), no one else's choice of marital partner invalidates or degrades the choice that I or anyone else might make, and too many people like heterosexual sex for the population to crash if we start allowing gay marriage.

The fact that there is even a debate over this issue is astonishing. It is not my, nor anyone else's, business whom my neighbor chooses to have sex with as long as it's consensual, and it follows that it's not my business to limit who can marry whom. I am just flat-out astonished that anyone has the chutzpah to claim that it is their business.

WilliamWDelaney....

*I had always been taught that bullying is a physical thing, or saying the person is bad....saying that the action they choose shouldn't be wrong, otherwise there are a lot of parents bullying their children

*I would slap those types of guys in the face, duh, seriously, I wouldn't be interested in a sex-obsessed dude, but some of the guys in my church are not like that

*I don't want to know how gay people have sex! Perv! I am barely 18, and trying to keep my mind clean as best as I can in this filthy world

*You don't have to be interested in heterosexual acts as long as you are not interested in gay ones! You could be a celibate, and that would be amazing! I have an uncle who is in his 50's...never married, never had sex, and he is one of my favorite people, because he still has faith. Yes, they try to encourage people to get married but that is because people are sex-obsessed, but if you can forget about it, then good for you!

*Look, I only know the basics of what happens. I am not claiming to be an expert....I know the basics of what happens. Who knows what really happens, they may still get support, but the only thing I know for sure is that the only way to be clean in the eyes of our heavenly father (for whom it really matters) is to repent when you have sinned, especially such a bad one as that

*I don't care because I don't know. I don't want to know because it is such a perverse thing. Sorry for trying to stay morally clean...

*I read the verse. She doesn't go to the doctor and have a syringe inserted in her stomach or whatever to kill the child. She says a prayer and the Lord decides, and what it up to him is up to him....he knows what he's doing and the verse doesn't say that she tries to kill the baby, it is the curse, which s decided by heavenly Father, our all-knowing, all-loving, parent in heaven

*Yes it does! There is science behind it:
"Having intrusive thoughts about homosexuality and doubting one's own sexuality are symptoms that characterize a subtype of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder"

quote from

*Then why do ya'll even want it? Symbolic? Psh, you know you want the tax breaks and such

*Then they aren't gay or doing anything wrong as long as they aren't in the sexual arena

*There will be more babies because a lot of them will realize that it was just a fad, and maybe want to go straight

*Reverse logic....ket me make it clear.....sex out of marriage is bad, gay sex, straight sex, up and down sex

*You've got to realize: I'M AUTISTIC ! !! (Kinda the reason I'm on this site, duh) I don't know that much about relationships (a key characteristic of aspies) heck, I've only been on one date in my life. No, it's not because of what I believe (because there are a lot of cute mormon boys out there) it is because I don't understand how to make good relationships. I am barely learning the friend thing. Soon I'll go off to college, and I'll learn more. But until then, my knowledge comes from books and articles. So sorry I don't know about that because I am naturally bad at things like that and understanding the sort.

*It's not an excuse. It's a declaration. It is the best I can go by. I believe what I believe because I have been taught from an early age, and I have prayed about it, I have read the scriptures, I have gone to class, I have heard the talks, I have discussed. That is what I believe, and you don't have to believe what I believe....I am just putting my opinion out there.

chrissyrun,

We clearly believe different things, and I see no reason that this should not be the case.

I firmly believe, in good faith, that my sexuality is an integral part of how I was created, and that the physical expression of my sexuality is fit, right and proper.

I try very hard to ensure that I respect the faith that other people have, and their right to order their lives according to that faith. In return, however, I expect that others will respect my beliefs, and permit me to live my life according to my faith.

Here is where I see us parting ways. By opposing same-sex marriage, you seek to make me, and other people like me, live our lives according to your beliefs.

If you do not believe that same-sex marriage is proper, then you are not obliged to enter into a same sex marriage. But in seeking to prevent others from doing so, you are seeking to impose a system of beliefs on other people.