The "No Kids Allowed" Movement

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Oodain
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29 Jul 2011, 8:37 pm

to me this is all about personal choice, if it had been state run buisnesses it would be another talk.

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30 Jul 2011, 12:16 am

91 wrote:

I think the previous generation, which tolerated children to a much greater extent than ours does, had a better understanding of the different. To them, the idea of banning children from restaurants was unthinkable, the sound of children having fun was a sound of the surety of the future, almost a symbol of prosperity (especially to the boomer parents). I suppose, as a person who has more in common with that generation than with my own, I balk for the same reason. The idea that lives should be so separate, so that hedonism should be a right that goes unobstructed, is ridiculous to me.

Do you mean the 'children should be seen but not heard' generations? The generations where anyone who could afford it, hired a nurse and/or a nanny to take care of the kids so that they could pursue their own interests at will? The generations where the father had a study where the kids were strictly prohibited until well into adulthood?

League_Girl
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30 Jul 2011, 1:36 am

I don't have a problem with this. I think this might get parents to do their jobs again as parents. Too many kids these days running around and misbehaving and being rude and obnoxious and parents do nothing to stop them.

91
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30 Jul 2011, 1:40 am

LKL wrote:

I was raised, in large part, by that generation. Poppa had a study, it was where he taught me history. I had a sitter, because my dad worked late; it was my grandmother, who despite the being referred to as 'the boss', never stopped spoiling me rotten with toys. We had a vastly different experience i think.

VEX wrote:

You know whaT? F*ck families. The level of entitlement on people for having a family is so freaking high. Everyone can have a family, it is not as much of an accomplishment as going to the bathroom.

A leftie chastising families for their sense of entitlement... I remember something about pots and kettles.

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Philologos
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30 Jul 2011, 1:43 am

Tequila wrote:

donnie_darko wrote:

You have a point in which I think the obsession with children is more of an infatuation than true love or concern.

People don't actually care about children, or letting them learn about the world. They just want to protect them from everything, to wrap them up in cotton wool, prevent them from making their own decisions. Then when they grow up they're utterly at a loss as to how to deal with the world around them and nobody cares about them any more.

I guess that means that only one [well, maybe two] people I know has ever been included in "people" - and one of them has given up on the project. Suits me - I have been told most of my life with various degrees of subtlety that I am not in "people". But some of the others might want to argue that they really ae people.

Master_Pedant
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30 Jul 2011, 1:51 am

ouinon wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

ouinon wrote:

1 ) Why would children get more bored in restaurants than adults?
2 ) Why would children make more noise when bored than adults?

Because their brains are actively growing and developing. Haven't you noticed how small their heads are?

Exactly. The prefrontal cortex also doesn't completely develop until somewhere in the 20's, which is involved in impulse control, forethought, executive function, etc. All these arguments about kids being equivalent to adults is absurd and don't have any connection to reality but are only connected to some abstract pondering.

As I just replied on the previous page to blauSamstag:

Quote:

The size of a person's brain in infancy has nothing to do with it.

Many children actually love to do, or watch, or read, the same thing over and over again. ie. They actually *like* the familiar.

Restaurants, full of people that a child has never seen before, food they may not eat at home, music and furniture and crockery and cutlery, and service, that they don't have at home or at school, must in fact be one of the environments children know least well, therefore, by your reckoning, the least distressingly boring for most children.

... So could argue that it's actually stress rather than boredom which provokes the disruptive behaviour.

But if children/infants in the west may not be used to suppressing feelings of stress, unease, or boredom, and likely to make a noise about it ... the training in not doing so appears to happen at a much younger age, ( by two years or so ) in many non-western cultures ... ie. this chronic/widespread acting-out/yelling/screaming/tantrums etc is a western phenomenon, not universal.

So I repeat my question: why do children in the west get so bored, or stressed, in restaurants?

And if in fact they are *not* actually any more bored or stressed than adults in such places ... why do children in the west make so much more noise about it than children in S. Africa, Turkey or Greece?

The west has some very strange ideas about children, and their capacities. In fact western society as a whole tends to infantilise people, which includes holding-back the development of independent activity and self-governing skills in children, systematically excluding them from full-participation in society until the advanced age of 16-18 or even 21.
.

+1

I've been to quite a few restruants as a child and, while I was once chastised by my father over inapproperiately starring at someone in a food court, I don't really recall incidents of misbehaviour (though I did and still do have a tendency towards internalizing stress). I really do think it's about proper parenting and expectations, I've been to numerous establishments that allow children and they don't seem to be as awful as some of the posters experiences would indicate.

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Vexcalibur
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30 Jul 2011, 8:05 am

91 wrote:

A leftie chastising families for their sense of entitlement... I remember something about pots and kettles.

I guess if you would tag me as a leftie, you can do it. I don't like tags though. I think that taxes should be low, just not too low and that they should be the same percentage for everyone because that's how the government works. I don't like entitlement but in the case of the US the entitlement problem is more from giant corporations like the copyright giants who want everyone to police for their content. Or the car companies who believe that they can do terrible cars and still get paid bailouts. Or the republican rich in general who believe they are entitled to not paying taxes.

Does not change that so-called "families" (Actually parents who couldn't use a condom) are wrong to believe that the whole state and society should be their kids' nannies rather than... err themselves. You put your nostalgia goggles about the era in which you were raised by your parents. So, were them the kind of people that expected the government to raise you or did they do it themselves?

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b9
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30 Jul 2011, 8:26 am

ruveyn wrote:

b9 wrote:

i do not dislike children. they did not design the discomfort i feel as a result of their existence. adults designed it,

To protect the children from would be speeders like yourself.

ruveyn

i can not see how your comment makes sense. you seem to be answering a question i never asked.

YippySkippy
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30 Jul 2011, 9:11 am

^ add his sentence to the end of yours.

ruveyn
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30 Jul 2011, 10:34 am

b9 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

b9 wrote:

i do not dislike children. they did not design the discomfort i feel as a result of their existence. adults designed it,

To protect the children from would be speeders like yourself.

ruveyn

i can not see how your comment makes sense. you seem to be answering a question i never asked.

Oops. My error. Here is what you wrote prior to that:

"i hate driving at 40 kph, and i have to use all my discipline to restrain myself from violating a 40kph speed limit. i am rather disgruntled that i have to spend so much energy in forcing myself to conform to an idiotic side effect of incomplete planning by the stewards of the children at the schools that spill out raggedly onto the highways after they get out."

The world cannot be arranged just so you can drive as fast as you feel like.

ruveyn

b9
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30 Jul 2011, 10:53 am

ruveyn wrote:

b9 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

b9 wrote:

i do not dislike children. they did not design the discomfort i feel as a result of their existence. adults designed it,

To protect the children from would be speeders like yourself.

ruveyn

i can not see how your comment makes sense. you seem to be answering a question i never asked.

you are a bit emotional. i did not indicate that i wanted to drive at a break neck speed though school zones.

i drive as fast as i see fit. if i see peripheral uncertainties on the side of the road, i will naturally slow to a speed where i am certain i can react to sudden exceptions that may arise..

i think that kids should leave by the back door into a quiet street behind their school, and not spill out onto six lane highways with busy people who may mow them down. it is as simple as that.

i will do as i please, and i do not please to drive like a maniac. kids are safe when i drive through them. but i would like them to be somewhere else so my progress is not hindered.

whatever.

sartresue
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30 Jul 2011, 11:54 am

b9 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

b9 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

b9 wrote:

i do not dislike children. they did not design the discomfort i feel as a result of their existence. adults designed it,

To protect the children from would be speeders like yourself.

ruveyn

i can not see how your comment makes sense. you seem to be answering a question i never asked.

Driving change topic

Instead of complaining here, b9, approach your local school board, who might be interested in persuading kids spilling out the back door. This might prevent nasty accidents by distracted driving, and even the careful one as you have described your driving skill.

Ruveyn, I and many others are probably more emotional about children as we are parents, and so we worry about them as they exit school. This is one reason why many of us pick up our kids at this time, which increases traffic around the school zones drivers frequent after the school day is ended.

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LKL
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30 Jul 2011, 4:14 pm

b9 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

b9 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

b9 wrote:

i do not dislike children. they did not design the discomfort i feel as a result of their existence. adults designed it,

To protect the children from would be speeders like yourself.

ruveyn

i can not see how your comment makes sense. you seem to be answering a question i never asked.

OT: due respect to your driving skills, but there is no f*****g way you can be certain that you can 'react to sudden exceptions' that may arise at pretty much any speed. You're kidding yourself. I've seen a few too many drivers spilling their brains out their ears or bleeding into their own guts due to 'sudden exceptions' that they could not have predicted or reacted to at the (normal, legal) speeds they were driving.

ruveyn
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30 Jul 2011, 6:24 pm

sartresue wrote:

Ruveyn, I and many others are probably more emotional about children as we are parents, and so we worry about them as they exit school. This is one reason why many of us pick up our kids at this time, which increases traffic around the school zones drivers frequent after the school day is ended.

I have 4 children (middle age now) and 5 grandchildren. I understand your concerns completely.

ruveyn

91
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30 Jul 2011, 8:20 pm

B9

Driving at your own speed might mean driving responsibly to you. However, it means going 100mph to others. I know many good drivers but I trust none of them to drive without a speed limit near people. Even formula 1 has a pit lane speed limit and I am fairly certain you ain't that good.

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b9
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30 Jul 2011, 9:01 pm

LKL wrote:

OT: due respect to your driving skills, but there is no f***ing way you can be certain that you can 'react to sudden exceptions' that may arise at pretty much any speed. You're kidding yourself. I've seen a few too many drivers spilling their brains out their ears or bleeding into their own guts due to 'sudden exceptions' that they could not have predicted or reacted to at the (normal, legal) speeds they were driving.

OK noone can be certain of anything really. i may be hit by a meteorite that causes me to lose control and plow into the crowd as well.

i have only just woken up and i am going back to bed, but i will say that i do not exceed the speed limit around schools. sometimes i will slow to 10kph if i think it is necessary. school speed zones are 40kph.

the problem is that the 40kph zones in australia start about 3 km before the school, and continue for the same distance after the school. i said i do not like it. i did not say i did not obey it.

i am going back to sleep.

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