I am officially distubed by the truth of U.S healthcare.

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Inuyasha
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08 Aug 2011, 2:30 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Dantac wrote:

I'll just toss this in to provide a point of comparison:

When my mother was diagnosed with cancer (which was benign thankfully!) by a US doctor we went through the US insurance/healthcare system.

Prices were well into the ten thousand mark for tests, specialist visits, MRI's etc...this is before any surgery or treatment was in the picture. The insurance company tried all it could to deny her coverage for the smallest of technicalities (specialist is outside their network, MRI is not of their approved price range, etc). Waitlists for the tests and specialists ran well into a 4 month period.

When you get a cancer warning you dont stand around and wait for sh* to happen. We still had our home country's (Colombia) health coverage so we put my mom on the plane and off she went to have her treatments there.

She arrived. Specialist saw her the day after arrival.. The same week of her arrival she had several MRI's and xray sessions & was attended by other specialists. In the same month she had two surgeries that removed the tissues and were analyzed as not being malignant.

They also removed cysts from her breasts as preventative measure less they also became cancerous.

We paid less than 5k for everything because the gov mandated, semi-socialized healthcare system covers most of the costs and medicines.

This.. is a third world country that has most of its population living in poverty and has had a 80+ year drug/civil war going non-stop. How is it the US cannot have something as efficient as this?

My mother's experience contrasts with the mother of my cousins (twice removed): she was diagnosed with cancer, the 'system' sent her to specialist after specialist taking months in between and costing an insane amount of money..and in the end it was too little too late the cancer had spread before she was given the OK by the insurance co. and by the hospital to be treated properly. She passed away.

Really, my dad had a mild heart attack recently and doctors in the US despite the fact the chemical readings didn't show a massive heart attack were steadily rising and added to the fact my father's side has a history of heart issues (could be also due to smoking, but meh) they had him admitted right then. They didn't worry about what the insurance company would say, etc. insurance is footing a large portion of that bill.

On the flipside, I heard about a man whom has no eyes quite literally was hauled in by Social Security Disability for an eye exam to see if his vision had improved.

And should I get a horrible disease or need imidiate psychological treatement then I might get the emergency treatment but then I would have to pay the healthcare system more money then I have ever even seen in my life and could never afford...........but that's cool I dont have much to contibute to our sick system I am just an expendable lower class peice of garbage. I love how I have to sit here and stress about it while you guys throw numbers at me trying to convince me that my suffering with no treatment whatsoever is good because at least I can occasionally buy things and contribute to the system....who cares how I and other people like me feel if the insurance workers and corporate america is getting their fat paychecks.

I am expendable garbage...maybe some of you did not intend to word it that way but that is the messege I am getting. And it makes me feel so very awesome that all I am to anyone is a freaking economic loss.

Really? The health insurance I'm on accepts my visits to a doctor whom is out of network, reimburses me for the money I pay for the doctor's visit (doctor doesn't accept insurance, medicare, etc.), and has largely backed off on insisting I take generics (which is good cause generics tend to not work for me).

Also, I never said you were expendable garbage, furthermore in case you weren't aware there is something known as medicare and medicaid that helps low income people with medical costs. There are also some religious organizations that help people with medical costs.

Sweetleaf wrote:

And sorry if this is too blunt...but I am going to have a strongly mixed drink so I don't have to feel like crap.

It isn't a good idea to have alcohol (which is a depressent), when you already feel like crap.

Ok well I have no health insurance...and got denied for medicaid. so I get no treatment, no reimbursmant and a very heavy bill should I ever 'need' medical treatment. And again I got DENIED medicaid. It is ideal that medicaid helps low income people but in reality that is not the case hence the fact that I got denied medicaid. And I am not a freaking christian so what good are religious organizations going to do me.

And I am sorry I get NO medical treatment so I have to make due with what I have....and alchohol is one of the things I have at the moment.

You don't have to be Christian to get help from them regarding medical coverage...

And what makes you think they would actaully be able to cover most of the espenses I don't want to be a burdun on the poor christian population after all.

Because there are organizations out there where they have set up their own counter to the insurance companies. You should check out American Family Radio sometime, they even advertise for that group, would recommend you do some research, but it could prove promising.

Dude, i know what I am talking about I come from this system you speak of...virtually there is really no actual help for lower class mentally ill people.....who do not have rich families that can pay for treatment. I mean sure I am angry that my parents did not acknowledge the mental problems I have....but at the same time how the hell would have the afforded it? I mean I had two other siblings who needed food and shelter as well.

My parents are middle class, not wealthy. Furthermore, as I said there are charities out there that can help you.

Sweetleaf
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08 Aug 2011, 2:39 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Dantac wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

And sorry if this is too blunt...but I am going to have a strongly mixed drink so I don't have to feel like crap.

It isn't a good idea to have alcohol (which is a depressent), when you already feel like crap.

You don't have to be Christian to get help from them regarding medical coverage...

And what makes you think they would actaully be able to cover most of the espenses I don't want to be a burdun on the poor christian population after all.

My parents are middle class, not wealthy. Furthermore, as I said there are charities out there that can help you.

I am lower class 'white trailer trash' you probably have no idea how it feels to be put in that catagory when you are a 15 year old teen who really has no clue what the hell is going on but you know something is very wrong with it. And then of course if you admit that you are a 21 year old college student who cannot adquetely hold a job due to the fact they happen to have mental issues which make it difficult. I am on the lowest end of society and quite frankly I am angry about how people in my situation are treated.....Yeah maybe we dont have a crap load of money, but we are still freaking human beings and should be treated as such....the buisness model does not respect this so I oppose it.

Sweetleaf
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08 Aug 2011, 2:47 am

Oh and I would rather die standing up for the rights of human freaking beings then giving in to our sick society that encourages us to step on others to get ahead financially. And as hard as it can be to maintain this opinion I do not plan on giving up anytime soon...so all those people looking forward to the suicide of people like me can look forward to the fact that they have another thing coming from 'expendable' people like me.

Sorry i cannot post this without honoring Judas Priest who came up with those awesome lyrics.

Sweetleaf
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08 Aug 2011, 3:14 am

I hate to sound paranoid or anything....But I have to find it intresting that as soon as I mention the question 'what the hell are peopel in my situation to do?' everyone conviniantly dissappears. what do you people have nothing to say...why aren't you defendding the flawless debt...I mean economic system we have going on in this oh so great country?

Fatal-Noogie
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08 Aug 2011, 5:05 am

Q:
What's the difference between healthcare by government
and healthcare by insurance companies?

A:
The government does not desperately want to pay for your healthcare.
The insurance companies desperately want to NOT pay for your healthcare.

Which do you choose?

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cave_canem
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08 Aug 2011, 6:16 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

And again we are back to what is someone in my situation supposed to do should they need medical treatment?

Marry a Canadian and move to Canada.

zer0netgain
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08 Aug 2011, 7:46 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Everything should not follow the 'competative buisness model' especially not healthcare....that competive buisness model is not so kind to people who cannot afford health insurance and certainly cannot afford medical care without that insurance they cannot afford......I do not think we should have insurance companies, Why do we need buisnesses people pay to screw them over when it matters worse and how can anyone knowingly pay into companies like this knowing they make more profit the more they deny people coverage so their goal is essentially deny coverage and take peoples money while trying to find a way out of ever covering anything.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

The issue is that there is a need for COMPETITION. If someone can offer a better service for the same or less cost, then you are forced to innovate. If government is going to foot the bill (Medicare and Medicaid), providers can charge as much as the government will pay (which is passed to the taxpayers). It's only recently that some squabble was made and enough of the fraud going on was exposed that now Medicare/Medicaid invoices are being audited to see if they were really needed.

You are correct on insurance companies. They came about as a means to protect the INDIVIDUAL from the FINANCIAL HARDSHIP of huge medical bills. It was never designed (nor is it currently designed) to provide health care services. They came about in a time when everyone could bear some measure of health care out of pocket and the insurance was for the excess they were not prepared for. Several things went wrong that led to where we are now. People being able to sue health insurance companies (cost passed on to customers), a flood of medical malpractice claims (many of which really are not justified...cost passed on to consumers), the mandate to provide care to those who can not pay (which just gets passed on to those who can pay), etc.

Reforming health care in America is a very complex problem with many issues that must be addressed so that the doctor/hospital can be "profitable" without denying anyone needed health care. Just letting government take it over is not an answer because where there is not competition, there is no innovation.

blauSamstag
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08 Aug 2011, 8:33 am

Inuyasha wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Long waits for critical care are an uncalculated cost of the Canadian health care system. A price tag could easily be calculated by determining how much patients would be willing to pay to reduce or eliminate these waiting times. We do this calculation on a regular basis in the United States in determining the charges for all services provided. In the U.S., we choose to pay higher prices in order to get more immediate care; in Canada, patients have no choice but to wait.

The central argument being made here is distorted.

Critical care - e.g. gonna die if you don't see someone soon - does happen on a faster schedule.

"is this mole cancerous" less so.

Yeah and if it is cancerous, you could end up with far more serious health issues while your medical system says they'll get around to it.

again you're not really paying attention. people with more serious needs are bumped in line ahead of those with an owie in the canadian system.

number5
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08 Aug 2011, 8:39 am

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

The central argument being made here is distorted.

Critical care - e.g. gonna die if you don't see someone soon - does happen on a faster schedule.

"is this mole cancerous" less so.

Yeah and if it is cancerous, you could end up with far more serious health issues while your medical system says they'll get around to it.

again you're not really paying attention. people with more serious needs are bumped in line ahead of those with an owie in the canadian system.

And completely neglecting the fact that some 50 million Americans can't even get the basic screening to begin with.

visagrunt
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08 Aug 2011, 10:34 am

zer0netgain wrote:

But you are supposing that there is competition in your marketplace now. I suggest to you that any suggestion of competition is illusory at best.

Let's face it, the health care industry ceased to be a competitive market when widespread health insurance became available--primarly due to the impact of moral hazard. Health care providers have no reason to compete with each other (particularly on price) because the consumers aren't paying the bill. Insurers, meanwhile, largely have to move in lock step with each other, because a competitive move made by one must be matched by the others.

So I think it's pointless to suggest that the market creates innovation in US health care. And if you are going to have an uncompetitive marketplace, then who do you want to be in charge of that marketplace?

When all consumers are insured by the same service provider, then that service provider has the opportunity to set prices. How is it that in Canada we are able to provide universal, publicly funded, medically necessary care and spend less per capita than you spend just on the areas of health care that you publicly fund? Because government is able to constrain price growth.

It's not a perfect system, and while you will find many Canadians who can point out its flaws and suggestions for change (especially those of us inside it), you will not find many Canadians who want to scrap it.

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zer0netgain
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08 Aug 2011, 11:28 am

visagrunt wrote:

But you are supposing that there is competition in your marketplace now. I suggest to you that any suggestion of competition is illusory at best.

Certainly, it has flaws, but every real innovation in surgery and health care has pretty much come from the USA. WHY?

It's because if you build a better mouse trap, you can make money on selling it.

If the inventor of a new procedure, new drug, new treatment, etc. can't make their fortune on coming up with a new and better way to treat disease and illness, who will do it? In most any country with a socialized medicine system, there is no "reward" to be realized by doing something new and daring (taking risk because sometimes it's all for nothing). Likewise, if everything is government run, where is the incentive to innovate or improve?

If your customers can't take their money and go someplace else, what is your motivation to offer better services, better products, etc.?

AceOfSpades
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08 Aug 2011, 11:40 am

zer0netgain wrote:

visagrunt wrote:

But you are supposing that there is competition in your marketplace now. I suggest to you that any suggestion of competition is illusory at best.

What incentives? The carrot and stick model only works for tedious, unfulfilling, and routine jobs that don't require any thought. Otherwise it is intrinsic motivation that motivates. There are studies that have proven this. I'm not saying carrot and stick doesn't work at all outside of those types of jobs, but they aren't the primary motivation outside of those types of jobs.

visagrunt
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08 Aug 2011, 12:08 pm

zer0netgain wrote:

I disagree--there is ample biomedical research being undertaken in plenty of countries with public funded health care systems. In fact, government has a strong interest in innovation, because innovation can serve to provide more cost effective ways of delivering health care.

Vast amounts are spent in the United States, and many innovated pharmaceuticals and therapies are the result of that spending. But innovation is not the exclusive province of the United States, nor of the private sector.

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marshall
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08 Aug 2011, 12:39 pm

wcoltd wrote:

This system (of the free market) doesn't cater to the greedy, it allows all people regardless of their intentions to produce things for the general good. Only those who produce the most useful things to a society at the lowest cost win out.

In the case of healthcare this is blatantly false. Free markets do not optimize a product when the complexity [of] doing a cost-benefit analysis is beyond the average consumer. Insurance and big pharma companies clearly have a huge advantage over ordinary people. I'd argue that these companies benefit from confusing the consumer and otherwise being dishonest. The free market fundamentalism you espouse makes the idiotic assumption that both sides of the bargaining table are equally informed and able when it comes to making self-interested decisions. This is only true for very simple commodities where consumers know exactly what they are getting. Face it, healthcare is not a commodity.

Quote:

It goes back to the invisible hand, this idea that people, out of acting out of their own self interest benefit the whole of society.

The "invisible hand" as at best a half truth. It obviously doesn't apply in the majority of real world cases where markets are imperfect because seller and buyer do not have equal bargaining ability. Of course I have never seen a Randroid actually address this problem instead of pretending it doesn't exist. In comparison to real economic theory, Randroid market fundamentalism is akin to pseudoscience. It's a gimmick thrown at the masses so they will blindly let the plutocracy screw them up the ass.

Last edited by marshall on 08 Aug 2011, 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

blauSamstag
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08 Aug 2011, 12:43 pm

number5 wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

The central argument being made here is distorted.

Critical care - e.g. gonna die if you don't see someone soon - does happen on a faster schedule.

"is this mole cancerous" less so.

Yeah and if it is cancerous, you could end up with far more serious health issues while your medical system says they'll get around to it.

again you're not really paying attention. people with more serious needs are bumped in line ahead of those with an owie in the canadian system.

And completely neglecting the fact that some 50 million Americans can't even get the basic screening to begin with.

Right. It's just a question of how you want to ration a limited resource.

Canada rations health care according to needs and availability. They have some issues maintaining long-term care for patients who live in rural areas, and if you are a woman with back problems due to large breasts your reduction might get scheduled a year or more out because other people need surgery more urgently than you do.

The USA rations health care according to your ability to pay.

Sweetleaf cannot pay, so his ration is nil, short of an emergency room visit that will either bankrupt him, ruin his credit rating, or both.

I suggest going to the emergency room w/o identification and swearing that your name is Jose Jimenez. Inuyasha has assured us that mexicans always get free emergency care.

number5
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08 Aug 2011, 12:50 pm

blauSamstag wrote:

number5 wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

blauSamstag wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

The central argument being made here is distorted.

Critical care - e.g. gonna die if you don't see someone soon - does happen on a faster schedule.

"is this mole cancerous" less so.

Yeah and if it is cancerous, you could end up with far more serious health issues while your medical system says they'll get around to it.

again you're not really paying attention. people with more serious needs are bumped in line ahead of those with an owie in the canadian system.

And completely neglecting the fact that some 50 million Americans can't even get the basic screening to begin with.

I'll be sure to try that one nest time I get sick, although it's probably better if I go with Maria instead of Jose.

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