Horror of Abortion!

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I can not figure out why people are so angry in this thread.
Should I group that with the I do not understand why I make some people so angry
with the things I say?

Those were some gruesome photos. However, I am wondering if they are all the "choice of the mother" abortions that they are presented as. It may be that some of them (or possibly even all of them) are actually either miscarriages or abortions done because the fetus was almost dead and was endangering the mother.

Medically, I see that as a disingenuous statement. We have no precise medical definition of consciousness even for an adult human.

Were we to apply a tool like the Glasgow scale or the Glasgow paediatric scale to a foetus it would be a completely artificial exercise. Without the abiltiy to test eye and verbal response we are left only with the ability to test motor response, which is insufficient for a clinical finding of consciousness in any meaningful way. There is nothing to distinguish a foetus from an adult in a persistent vegitative state. To suggest that motor reponse is, in and of itself, sufficient to determine consciousness is, I think, medically unsound.

But I readily acknowledge that consciousness must develop at some point, which might or might not predate the threshhold of viability. But that does not alter my opinion in any way.



I suggest that it is deterministic, rather than legalistic. That may be a semantic point, but I want to make it to distinguish viability from the discussion about whether or not a foetus possesses any legal rights.

I see no objection to your position that a fertilized, implanted ovum is a human being. Indeed, I wholeheartedly agree with it. And I am in no position to comment on what you believe to be the moral implications of that finding--morality is an intensely subjective, personal thing. But for my part, that is insufficient to move me from the position that the interests of the foetus cannot trump those of its mother until the point at which the foetus has the possibility of living independently from its mother. Before 20 wga there is no such possibility, even with the best technology and care at our disposal. That threshhold may retreat, over time, and my view will move with it.

Support this claim with scientific evidence.

Having brain waves is not indicative of consciousness. Even people in deep comas have brain waves.

ruveyn

lol

Man, I got here way too late. It looks like a good chunk of you already said a bunch that back my point of view on this whole thing. I think we all learned a valuable lesson here. We must have the abortions done right away, don't wait until it's heart starts beating for crying out loud *grabs handful of popcorn*

At the end of 28 weeks a fetus is viable.
It is known that a foetus' brain has all the features of a normal human brain by the 25th week. However, the first signs of foetal brain activity starts at the 12th week.
Not that this matters to the reason by which I think a foetus is just a stage of life by which a Human has as much rights as any other Human.

You make a good point. The only thing I felt when I saw those pictures however was just plain disgust. Dead babies are one of the few things I avoid seeing.

Okay, I've been reading and want to make a few points-

1. Joker defended his view of abortions in rape cases because it was being forced upon the mother. Why force a hungry mouth to feed, security to provide for and warm clothing? In my views this version of the argument is as logical as jumping of a bridge.

2. I agree, abortion shouldn't be used as a contraceptive. Unless that person was already protected, using condoms and the contraceptive pill, and still fell pregnant. Impossible you say? My friend was in this situation. It's a last resort option to protecting both the mothers and any future children's quality of life. She is now, after completing her education, the happy mother to a healthy one year old. If she had finished the previous pregnancy to term, her and that child would most likely be unable to live comfortably at all.

3. Joining the argument over women's rights, I have some strong views on this. One thing I hate is people trying to punish the woman for making the choice to have an abortion. All those pro-life groups screaming at people going to these clinics are causing even more emotional trauma for what is a very difficult process already. Making a mother who had already made the decision to have an abortion listen to the fetu's heartbeat is sickening. Trying to make them feel shameful for something which is their own personal right is torture. However, I also believe that the father should have a say in the procedure if he wants the child. If he is willing to keep and provide for the child, the woman should at least consider completing the pregnancy to full term and handing over responsibility. It took two too tango, both should have a say in the product of their passions.

Consciousness is hard to measure that is true. But I know that by the 25th week, just before the end of the third trimester, I can say for certain that a foetus has in miniature every major structure of the brain that a Human brain has. The 28th week is the point at which a foetus is traditionally considered viable, although traditionally can mean when we can be bothered sometimes.

Not that any of this relates much to the argument that I make for protecting the life of an unborn human.


Unfortunately I consider the idea that just because an unborn human under the age of 20 weeks cannot live outside the body of its parent to forget the major fact of how a young human is dependent upon its parent for a much longer time.

You see people insist on thinking that because a foetus is less than twenty weeks old its dependence on its mother somehow gives her the right to end its life. Yet the fact is that a baby is dependent on a caregiver for much longer. Caring and giving one's resources to a young human doesn't just end because they pop out of you. And when you grind down away all the different ways that one supports the child the fact is that the mother supports the child in the womb as a parent supports their child outside it. Being in the womb of another human doesn't change the fact that outside it as inside it, the fact is that you are dealing with a Human.

Yes, it is harsh, but I already show that Humans aren't sitting in caves for the most part any more. There's no excuse for abortion for ease's sake, which is what it is when I have already said that for rape and health then abortion is fine. This aint black and white world, but I do intend on making it a less brooding grey.

Last edited by Gedrene on 17 Oct 2011, 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

My arguement about rape and aboriton, might not make. A lot of since to most people but a friend of mine was raped and had a abortion she felt violated and it was forced upon her I do not blame her for doing so.

And their is some logic in jumping off a bridge if your bungy jumping

I would disagree for the reason by which you say rape is wrong but do agree that a woman has every right to choose whether a baby conceived of rape should be aborted.


At this point I would say that abortion as a contraceptive is used a lot more than it should.

The problem with it is trying to prove it. Of course I must also consider extraneous circumstances that only throw up issues of parenthood and so forth that make me think I need to study more before I make a judgement on it myself.


Yes, I am very much against bullying anyone, especially someone who is pregnant. What sort of sicko attacks and screams at someone who is pregnant, even if they are going to have an abortion? I don't agree with abortion in the case of using it for contraception, and I may show reservations towards such people. But unless the woman was deliberately trying to get in to a situation by which she would have an abortion (and I consider those people very sick indeed), then why punish them? You might as well try and convince someone of your civilized behaviour by burning their house down.


Well I don't know about personal right, but intimidating someone I do disagree with. As for listening to a foetal heartbeat I guess a pregnant woman may listen if she wants to, but forcing someone to listen to something I say would be wrong, unless it's orderly protest and not jibing at all. There's a fine line between being a heartless jackass and genuinely concerned about the morality of the issue.


Of course if the man wants a child then I'd prefer if the child stays where it is in the general sense. But then again I should really get a sense of what pregnancy is like for a woman.

I don't agree with abortion in the case of using it for contraception, either.

1. I have never stated that I am pro life nor am I pro choice.

2. Having a child can be harmful to the women's health, in certin situations the mother and the child could die it does happen.

3. I have a lot of female family, members so my views on abortion, comes from listening to their veiws on it as well some are for it some against it I support it only if its necessary but abortion, should not be abused.

But then again as a man I do not have much of a say in the madder I support a women's right to choose even if I do not agree with her choice it's still her choice.

A man has as much ability to talk about the rights and wrongs of abortion as any woman. Anyone has the right of equal consideration on any topic. What matters is the argument they present.

I would agree with this statement if men could give birth

But I do agree that we men can talk about the rights and wrongs of abortion, but that all we can do it talk.

Personally I think people should just use condoms combined with birth control pill, much safer that way. There is also the "Morning After Pill" available to women who think they might be pregnant, it is best used within 48 hours but I have read it still has chance of success up to a week after (though decreased).

Honestly the question of a woman being raped and needing an abortion seems moot to me since the M.A.P. is available...




They can, actually, lad :



Now the question is:
Can men get abortions?

Your attempt at humor is futile Laddy.