Things you dislike about your country.

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visagrunt
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05 Jun 2012, 12:36 pm

Raptor wrote:

It's not paying taxes I have issues with but how that money is spent AND what the role of government should be....

Here we can find some middle ground.

You and I might disagree about the nature and number of fields in which government should act, but I imagine that these disagreements will, by and large, be questions of scope and scale rather than function.

I am fed up to the teeth with the "tax = theft" rhetoric. You cannot have a rational conversation which is founded on an irrational statement.

But "Government should stay out of (blank)," is a far more rational basis on which to build a discussion. We might never find agreement, but at least we would be speaking reasonably.

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05 Jun 2012, 12:39 pm

marshall wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

And what is morality? Just judgement and opinion. There are no moral facts.
ruveyn

If there are no moral facts then stop your goddamned whining about taxes being "theft". Everyone knows what your opinion is and those who disagree simply do not care what you think.

Uh oh! Marshall took the Lord's name in vain.
I'm telling'.

Last edited by Raptor on 05 Jun 2012, 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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05 Jun 2012, 12:41 pm

Raptor wrote:

How about paying off our national debts and workin toward a balanced budget?

BTW, talk of extermination camps only exites me.

Well why can't they use the money that's left over from the social safety network...to do that, and then still help the citizens in need of help? the idea of helping people must just really irritate you or something. Anyways as if its a suprise that would 'excite' you...sure it would that is until they finally come for you.

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JWC
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05 Jun 2012, 12:45 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

JWC wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I hate that there is nothing like real universal healthcare in this country.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

You believe that person A should be taxed to benefit person B against the will of A. Whoever does the taxing is a tyrant and he make B an accomplice.

If a private party did that you would be calling the police. If the government does that you are overflowing with fulsome praise.

Taking from A to give to B against the will of A is theft simpliciter (I seem to remember a Commandment that pertains here). Somehow you are willing to overlook this if the theft is legal.

ruveyn

Yup it is perfectly legal for taxes to be paid by taxpayers and have that money go towards helping the public. Taxation is perfectly legal in this country, theft isn't but of course taxation is not theft. If you think taxation is theft go find a country with no taxes or social safety network...then you can talk their ears off about this terrible place were people pay taxes and sometimes those taxes go to helping provide food, housing and healthcare for those less forutunate who can't afford it on their own. I am sure they'd be horrified.

Sweet! I'm starting my own gov't so I can go tax the f**k out of everyone I meet. Who wants to be first?

In all seriousness, the act of taxation is the same as the act of theft; only the actors are changed.

ok so what then is your point? I guess if you and ruven are stuck on it being theft then fine it's theft and in that context I agree with theft than. So now that, that's settled what is it you're actually trying to get at? that it is wrong for the government to tax the citizens...or you just don't want the money used for a social safety network?

Bolded statement is my primary point. Yes, it is wrong. Social safety network is fine, just as long as participation is voluntary for both those who pay in and those who receive benefits.

JWC
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05 Jun 2012, 12:50 pm

visagrunt wrote:

Raptor wrote:

It's not paying taxes I have issues with but how that money is spent AND what the role of government should be....

From wiki:

Quote:

...theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

Taxation fits this definition as well. How is that irrational?

Raptor
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05 Jun 2012, 12:52 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

How about paying off our national debts and workin toward a balanced budget?

BTW, talk of extermination camps only exites me.

How 'bout we get our house financially squared away then if there's money in the budget we'll have our social safety net. Note that I said safety net and not a hammock to lounge on for generations....

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05 Jun 2012, 12:52 pm

JWC wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Bolded statement is my primary point. Yes, it is wrong. Social safety network is fine, just as long as participation is voluntary for both those who pay in and those who receive benefits.

Way to miss the point...I don't actually think it's theft it was an attempt to move on from that particular point that some like to repeat, over and over and over again to get to what it is you actually oppose. Do you oppose taxation? or what the tax money is used for, its a very simple question really. But let me guess you cant protest or start a petition about your opposition to taxes because it's better to complain about how worthless people who need the social safety network are to try and somehow guilt them into getting off of welfare one way or another.

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Sweetleaf
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05 Jun 2012, 12:57 pm

JWC wrote:

Quote:

...theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

Taxation fits this definition as well. How is that irrational?

So you support the abolition of taxes? great the constitution gives you the right to petition or protest so go out and do something about it why don't you?

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JWC
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05 Jun 2012, 12:58 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

JWC wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Bolded statement is my primary point. Yes, it is wrong. Social safety network is fine, just as long as participation is voluntary for both those who pay in and those who receive benefits.

Did you read all of my post, or just the first sentence?

I clearly stated:

Quote:

Yes, it (taxation) is wrong. Social safety network is fine, just as long as participation is voluntary for both those who pay in and those who receive benefits.

Sweetleaf
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05 Jun 2012, 1:00 pm

Raptor wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

How about paying off our national debts and workin toward a balanced budget?

BTW, talk of extermination camps only exites me.

Umm because bad thing happens when the government just says 'screw you' to the poor and decides to ignore the citizens being in poverty. Most people don't just lay down and die, but if it comes to that I guess I will get to see what anarchy looks like.

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JWC
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05 Jun 2012, 1:01 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

JWC wrote:

Quote:

...theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

Taxation fits this definition as well. How is that irrational?

So you support the abolition of taxes? great the constitution gives you the right to petition or protest so go out and do something about it why don't you?

I have, and will continue to.

JWC
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05 Jun 2012, 1:03 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

How about paying off our national debts and workin toward a balanced budget?

BTW, talk of extermination camps only exites me.

It's only anarchy if the gov't stands aside and lets the thieves plunder.

Why do you believe that the poor can only be taken care of by the gov't?

Sweetleaf
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05 Jun 2012, 1:05 pm

JWC wrote:

Did you read all of my post, or just the first sentence?

I clearly stated:

Quote:

Yes, it (taxation) is wrong. Social safety network is fine, just as long as participation is voluntary for both those who pay in and those who receive benefits.

Yes that was my response to that statement. So what do you want to do about it? yell at people who need things like SSI, Food Stamps or subsidized housing for needing those things....or start a petition, protest or become a damn politician anyone who can afford it can do so now. Just saying if it's wrong there are thing you can do to push for the abolition of taxes.

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Raptor
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05 Jun 2012, 1:09 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

How about paying off our national debts and workin toward a balanced budget?

BTW, talk of extermination camps only exites me.

Well that's as much generosity as you'll ever get out of me where the public's money is concerned.
Take it or leave it.

Sweetleaf
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05 Jun 2012, 1:09 pm

JWC wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

How about paying off our national debts and workin toward a balanced budget?

BTW, talk of extermination camps only exites me.

It's only anarchy if the gov't stands aside and lets the thieves plunder.

Why do you believe that the poor can only be taken care of by the gov't?

I never said I believed that, but in this society you kind of need money to survive...if someone does not have money they might need money from the government or help with things like food and shelter. Because 'charity' apparently does not cut it, if it did then there may not be a problem. Thing is if the government has a policy of 'screw you' towards citizens that are struggling then those citizens have no reason whatsoever to support that government and every reason to rebel against it.

i wonder what the world would think if the government started mass killing it's own citizens?

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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 05 Jun 2012, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Raptor
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05 Jun 2012, 1:09 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

How about paying off our national debts and workin toward a balanced budget?

BTW, talk of extermination camps only exites me.

Well that's as much generosity as you'll ever get out of me where the public's money is concerned.
Take it or leave it.

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