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Joker
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06 Jul 2012, 9:54 pm

It's his name that is what is important to theists.



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06 Jul 2012, 10:26 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
That certainly helps speed me on my way. I'm still uncertain as to why using his name - or a translation thereof - is essential, though - wouldn't identifying him as The God of Abraham, or the King of the Jews, or even just My Lord suffice as a rather specific identifying title, especially given his state omniscience?


We were created in His image. We have been endowed with all the qualities God has such as love, reasoning abilities, compassion, justice, and so forth (even in an imperfect state we find ourselves in). Of all the material creations in existence humans are the most unique because only we have the ability to mirror our Creator's qualities in abundance. The plants cannot do this, nor the animal, or the air or the earth, or our sun... only humans.

One of our Godly qualities is the desire to name things. We love to name objects and discoveries. We love to give websites names instead of remembering their IP address. We name planets, and creatures in the sea. We name everything. Parents have the wonderful privilege of naming their offspring. Jehovah God -- who is described at Isaiah 40:26 and 12 as having "dynamic energy" and "being vigorous in power", "who has measured the waters in the mere hollow of his hand, and taken the proportions of the heavens themselves with a mere span" -- loves to name all the stars and even remembers all of them by name. (Psalms 147:4; Isaiah 40:26) One of the coolest tasks Adam was given was to name all the animals in the garden. (Genesis 2:19,20) Adam even named his wife. (Genesis 3:20) Jehovah gave Abram and Sarai new names to represent who they would eventually become. (Genesis 17:5, 15) Does it seem reasonable to conclude that if we humans enjoy naming people and things, and Jehovah God enjoys naming celestial objects, then why can't God give himself a name? A name that is unique to the skills and abilities he possesses.

God has chosen to call himself יְהֹוָה. . (Isa 42:8; 54:5) This name appears nearly 7,000 times in the bible. The name means "I am that I am" or “He Causes to Become” and only the Almighty could give himself such a name. His name simply means he can become whatever he needs to be to fulfill his purposes. In keeping with the meaning of God's name at Isaiah 55:11 Jehovah states, "so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it."

Can titles such as "The God of Abraham", or "the King of the Jews", or even just "My Lord" compare to a name like JEHOVAH? Let me put it this way... could a title such as "English Writer" compare to William Shakespeare? Could a title such as "great basketball player" compare to Michael Jordan? Would you not agree that names like William Shakespeare and Michael Jordan themselves brings up images that express the greatness of what these men achieved? Is the name JEHOVAH not as powerful?

Do you think it is possible to develop a close personal relationship with someone if you never know their name? Why would this not apply with God's name? His name appears over 6,000 times in bible. There are plenty of scriptures, such as John 17:3 and James 4:4, that show Jehovah wants people to know him. He wants people to develop a close, personal relationship with him. As his Witnesses our job is to go out and help people learn, from God's word the bible, about Jehovah God, how to develop a close personal relationship with him, and what He purposes for mankind in the near future.


_________________
A Proud Witness of Jehovah God (JW.org)
Revelation 21:4 "And [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes,
and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away."


Last edited by kxmode on 09 Jul 2012, 2:17 am, edited 12 times in total.

Joker
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06 Jul 2012, 10:28 pm

Good point I give it A PLUS.



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08 Jul 2012, 9:15 pm

AngelRho wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
We believe that all people are sinners who deserve eternal separation from God

Which indicates that Southern Baptists maintain a low opinion of people generally.

Not any more/less than anyone else. It's a matter of Biblical truth. Does the Bible hold that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory?


If the central fixation of your faith is "The Bible sez that God created such a horrible, yucky world that is deserves to be destroyed, along with everyone in it, except for me and some others who believe as I do, and who have found a special trick for evading damnation", then, yes, Southern Baptists maintain a much lower opinion of the universe than most people do.

AngelRho wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Quid pro quo. A Southern Baptist proclaims to believe in God, and gets his pie in the sky when he dies as his reward. It really is nothing more than spiritual materialism that is preached. A Southern Baptist can't even conceive of not getting his reward.

Some people are like that, sure. But you can find that attitude in pretty much any church of any tradition. Why make Baptists a special case?

Southern Baptists really do represent a special case. Other faiths are much more focused on helping the needy, doing charitable works, and maintaining a decent level of humility. Baptists are only concerned with getting everyone to believe the same things, and to be angered at the same things. Uniformity of anger is a paramount virtue.



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08 Jul 2012, 9:25 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Those are things believers don't have to worry about. Besides that, hedging bets is something one might do if he's insecure about the choices he's made. I have no need to place faith in anything except Jesus' atoning sacrifice. There is no "if."

I suppose IF I were to play at devil's advocate, I'd have to say you've answered your own question. If I didn't make the cut, then I'd do the same thing I'd do anyway: Die. If I got left behind, then I'd be left behind. What would it really matter what I did, anyway?

But I don't see that as reflective of a strong faith or even Christian truth. For believers, there is no "if". And there is no "cut" with those who believe. Either one believes or one doesn't. Among those who place their faith in Christ there will be no one excluded.


You really have no empirical evidence to back up your belief system. You only believe that believing what you believe automatically makes it come true. Believing something to be true does not automatically make it true.

Otherwise, the suicide bombers who believe that they will be greeted by 72 nubile virgins will similarly not be disappointed. They believe that the virgins will be there. And, POOF!! ! There they are!



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08 Jul 2012, 9:28 pm

AngelRho wrote:
We've discussed this in previous threads
Yes.

AngelRho wrote:
The words for virgin and for young woman are used interchangeably elsewhere in the OT
You lie.

AngelRho wrote:
Ruveyn's objection is not one of translation but rather of reading Christology into the prophets.
Wrong.



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09 Jul 2012, 8:09 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
We believe that all people are sinners who deserve eternal separation from God

Which indicates that Southern Baptists maintain a low opinion of people generally.

Not any more/less than anyone else. It's a matter of Biblical truth. Does the Bible hold that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory?


If the central fixation of your faith is "The Bible sez that God created such a horrible, yucky world that is deserves to be destroyed, along with everyone in it, except for me and some others who believe as I do, and who have found a special trick for evading damnation", then, yes, Southern Baptists maintain a much lower opinion of the universe than most people do.

Lazy straw man argument.

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Quid pro quo. A Southern Baptist proclaims to believe in God, and gets his pie in the sky when he dies as his reward. It really is nothing more than spiritual materialism that is preached. A Southern Baptist can't even conceive of not getting his reward.

Some people are like that, sure. But you can find that attitude in pretty much any church of any tradition. Why make Baptists a special case?

Southern Baptists really do represent a special case. Other faiths are much more focused on helping the needy,

We do that.

ArrantPariah wrote:
doing charitable works,

We do that.

ArrantPariah wrote:
and maintaining a decent level of humility.

We do that, too.

ArrantPariah wrote:
Baptists are only concerned with getting everyone to believe the same things, and to be angered at the same things. Uniformity of anger is a paramount virtue.

Even if that were true, it's no more/less than any religious group. We all group ourselves according to common beliefs and practices. Those who identify as Catholics go to Catholic churches. Besides that, all Christians share a concern and desire for all people to live eternally in God's presence--or at least they should. And if all Christians believe the same things, then it naturally follows that we are angered by the same things. Your issue isn't with Baptists. It's with Christians as a whole.



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09 Jul 2012, 8:13 am

151 posts on Utter Nonsense

ruveyn



AngelRho
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09 Jul 2012, 8:14 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Those are things believers don't have to worry about. Besides that, hedging bets is something one might do if he's insecure about the choices he's made. I have no need to place faith in anything except Jesus' atoning sacrifice. There is no "if."

I suppose IF I were to play at devil's advocate, I'd have to say you've answered your own question. If I didn't make the cut, then I'd do the same thing I'd do anyway: Die. If I got left behind, then I'd be left behind. What would it really matter what I did, anyway?

But I don't see that as reflective of a strong faith or even Christian truth. For believers, there is no "if". And there is no "cut" with those who believe. Either one believes or one doesn't. Among those who place their faith in Christ there will be no one excluded.


You really have no empirical evidence to back up your belief system. You only believe that believing what you believe automatically makes it come true. Believing something to be true does not automatically make it true.

Otherwise, the suicide bombers who believe that they will be greeted by 72 nubile virgins will similarly not be disappointed. They believe that the virgins will be there. And, POOF!! ! There they are!

Another straw man. If something is true, it is true whether you believe it or not, not because of wishful thinking. You seem to be making a false assumption about whether we are justified in believing what we hold to be true.



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09 Jul 2012, 8:56 am

AngelRho wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Those are things believers don't have to worry about. Besides that, hedging bets is something one might do if he's insecure about the choices he's made. I have no need to place faith in anything except Jesus' atoning sacrifice. There is no "if."

I suppose IF I were to play at devil's advocate, I'd have to say you've answered your own question. If I didn't make the cut, then I'd do the same thing I'd do anyway: Die. If I got left behind, then I'd be left behind. What would it really matter what I did, anyway?

But I don't see that as reflective of a strong faith or even Christian truth. For believers, there is no "if". And there is no "cut" with those who believe. Either one believes or one doesn't. Among those who place their faith in Christ there will be no one excluded.


You really have no empirical evidence to back up your belief system. You only believe that believing what you believe automatically makes it come true. Believing something to be true does not automatically make it true.

Otherwise, the suicide bombers who believe that they will be greeted by 72 nubile virgins will similarly not be disappointed. They believe that the virgins will be there. And, POOF!! ! There they are!

Another straw man. If something is true, it is true whether you believe it or not, not because of wishful thinking. You seem to be making a false assumption about whether we are justified in believing what we hold to be true.

Okay. What is the "true" assumption about whether you are justified in believing what you hold to be true, then? And, what do you mean by "straw man" exactly?



ArrantPariah
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09 Jul 2012, 8:57 am

ruveyn wrote:
151 posts on Utter Nonsense

ruveyn


What can one expect from a bunch of goyim? :wink:

I hope that you've subtracted your posts from that number.



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09 Jul 2012, 9:12 am

AngelRho wrote:
Even if that were true, it's no more/less than any religious group. We all group ourselves according to common beliefs and practices. Those who identify as Catholics go to Catholic churches. Besides that, all Christians share a concern and desire for all people to live eternally in God's presence--or at least they should. And if all Christians believe the same things, then it naturally follows that we are angered by the same things. Your issue isn't with Baptists. It's with Christians as a whole.

No, mostly Baptists. Other Christians aren't quite so obsessed with how horrible the world is, nor with forcing everyone to conform to their silly sense of morality.

http://articles.cnn.com/1997-06-18/us/9 ... n?_s=PM:US

Quote:
Southern Baptists vote for Disney boycott

DALLAS CNN Leaders of the Southern Baptists, the nations largest Protestant denomination, voted Wednesday to boycott Walt Disney Co. and its subsidiaries for what it called the companys antiChristian and antifamily direction.

The boycott includes the companys films and theme parks and its television network, ABC.

An overwhelming majority of delegates voted in favor of the measure at the Southern Baptist Convention, an annual meeting held by the denomination. The vote is not binding for the nations 15 million Southern Baptist members.

Many Southern Baptists object to Disneys policy of giving health benefits to samesex partners of employees, Gay Days at theme parks, and the release by Disney and its subsidiaries of controversial books and films like Pulp Fiction and Kids.

Disney officials declined to comment on the potential impact of any boycott but said the company had nothing to be ashamed of.

We are very proud that Disney creates more family entertainment of every kind than anyone else in the world, and we plan to increase that production, spokesman Ken Green said.

Gay rights activists say Disney is one of a growing number of companies that have dropped discriminatory policies and that the Southern Baptists are out of tune with mainstream American society.

They are overestimating the antigay sentiment in their own organization and the country, said David Smith, a spokesman for the Human Rights Campaign gay rights group, which lobbies Congress and big U.S. companies.

We dont think people are so antigay that it would prevent them from taking their children to see Mickey and Minnie Mouse at Disney World, he said.

Last June, Southern Baptists gave Disney a year to change its ways. Since then, the church leaders have said Disney has ignored their complaints and even increased its antifamily, progay policies and programming.


Southern Baptists are just plain ridiculous and obnoxious. There really isn't any corporation that is more family-friendly than Disney.

Southern Baptists even go so far as to label Timon and Pumba as a "gay couple." But, David and Jonathan? Heavens, NO!! !!



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09 Jul 2012, 9:16 am

AngelRho wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
If the central fixation of your faith is "The Bible sez that God created such a horrible, yucky world that is deserves to be destroyed, along with everyone in it, except for me and some others who believe as I do, and who have found a special trick for evading damnation", then, yes, Southern Baptists maintain a much lower opinion of the universe than most people do.

Lazy straw man argument.


Dismissing an argument as a "Lazy straw man argument" is even lazier.

AngelRho wrote:
We do that.

We do that.

We do that, too.

Not that I can see. And, boycotting Disney doesn't count.



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09 Jul 2012, 11:44 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Those are things believers don't have to worry about. Besides that, hedging bets is something one might do if he's insecure about the choices he's made. I have no need to place faith in anything except Jesus' atoning sacrifice. There is no "if."

I suppose IF I were to play at devil's advocate, I'd have to say you've answered your own question. If I didn't make the cut, then I'd do the same thing I'd do anyway: Die. If I got left behind, then I'd be left behind. What would it really matter what I did, anyway?

But I don't see that as reflective of a strong faith or even Christian truth. For believers, there is no "if". And there is no "cut" with those who believe. Either one believes or one doesn't. Among those who place their faith in Christ there will be no one excluded.


You really have no empirical evidence to back up your belief system. You only believe that believing what you believe automatically makes it come true. Believing something to be true does not automatically make it true.

Otherwise, the suicide bombers who believe that they will be greeted by 72 nubile virgins will similarly not be disappointed. They believe that the virgins will be there. And, POOF!! ! There they are!

Another straw man. If something is true, it is true whether you believe it or not, not because of wishful thinking. You seem to be making a false assumption about whether we are justified in believing what we hold to be true.

Okay. What is the "true" assumption about whether you are justified in believing what you hold to be true, then? And, what do you mean by "straw man" exactly?

By straw man, I mean that you are arguing against something I don't believe, such as "You only believe what you believe automatically makes it come true." I said nothing of the sort, and that doesn't even remotely fit what I believe. Most negative things you've had to say against Baptists aren't even true. You have a prejudice against Baptists that you can't even back up, but rather you make us scapegoats for everything you find distasteful about conservative evangelicals in general--some of whom for which the things you said may hold true against certain groups and individuals that aren't a part of the SBC.



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09 Jul 2012, 11:57 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Even if that were true, it's no more/less than any religious group. We all group ourselves according to common beliefs and practices. Those who identify as Catholics go to Catholic churches. Besides that, all Christians share a concern and desire for all people to live eternally in God's presence--or at least they should. And if all Christians believe the same things, then it naturally follows that we are angered by the same things. Your issue isn't with Baptists. It's with Christians as a whole.

No, mostly Baptists. Other Christians aren't quite so obsessed with how horrible the world is, nor with forcing everyone to conform to their silly sense of morality.

http://articles.cnn.com/1997-06-18/us/9 ... n?_s=PM:US

Quote:
Southern Baptists vote for Disney boycott

DALLAS CNN Leaders of the Southern Baptists, the nations largest Protestant denomination, voted Wednesday to boycott Walt Disney Co. and its subsidiaries for what it called the companys antiChristian and antifamily direction.

The boycott includes the companys films and theme parks and its television network, ABC.

An overwhelming majority of delegates voted in favor of the measure at the Southern Baptist Convention, an annual meeting held by the denomination. The vote is not binding for the nations 15 million Southern Baptist members.

Many Southern Baptists object to Disneys policy of giving health benefits to samesex partners of employees, Gay Days at theme parks, and the release by Disney and its subsidiaries of controversial books and films like Pulp Fiction and Kids.

Disney officials declined to comment on the potential impact of any boycott but said the company had nothing to be ashamed of.

We are very proud that Disney creates more family entertainment of every kind than anyone else in the world, and we plan to increase that production, spokesman Ken Green said.

Gay rights activists say Disney is one of a growing number of companies that have dropped discriminatory policies and that the Southern Baptists are out of tune with mainstream American society.

They are overestimating the antigay sentiment in their own organization and the country, said David Smith, a spokesman for the Human Rights Campaign gay rights group, which lobbies Congress and big U.S. companies.

We dont think people are so antigay that it would prevent them from taking their children to see Mickey and Minnie Mouse at Disney World, he said.

Last June, Southern Baptists gave Disney a year to change its ways. Since then, the church leaders have said Disney has ignored their complaints and even increased its antifamily, progay policies and programming.


Southern Baptists are just plain ridiculous and obnoxious. There really isn't any corporation that is more family-friendly than Disney.

Southern Baptists even go so far as to label Timon and Pumba as a "gay couple." But, David and Jonathan? Heavens, NO!! !!

People in the western world can follow whatever moral code they choose for themselves as long as it is in keeping with the law. We're not forcing anything on anyone.

The Bible teaches homosexuality is an abomination. Baptists believe the Bible. There is nothing wrong with withholding support from something someone believes violates a religious moral principle. What you're doing here is expressing a subjective opinion.

By attacking me specifically because I happen to be a Southern Baptist, are you not trying to impose your own morality on me? If forcing morality on someone is a bad thing, why would you be such a hypocrite to do the very thing you're accusing someone of doing?



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09 Jul 2012, 12:06 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
If the central fixation of your faith is "The Bible sez that God created such a horrible, yucky world that is deserves to be destroyed, along with everyone in it, except for me and some others who believe as I do, and who have found a special trick for evading damnation", then, yes, Southern Baptists maintain a much lower opinion of the universe than most people do.

Lazy straw man argument.


Dismissing an argument as a "Lazy straw man argument" is even lazier.

Straw man attacks are misleading statements that have the effect of misleading an opponent into defending something that is untrue. I'm not obligated to defend a position I don't even hold. If I'm going to spend the time and energy defending something, I'd rather it be something I hold to be true than something that is not.