Why Jews are smarter (as a group) than most groups.
16 Oct 2012, 4:33 pm
LennytheWicked wrote:
I disagree with the initial description of a "breeding program."
I believe the crucial word is accidental breeding program.
Before this guy came along, the concepts of genotype and phenotype were poorly understood. And he's from my native country of Denmark. Yippee!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Johannsen
LennytheWicked wrote:
Jews have traditionally valued education. Fathers were more likely to hand their daughters off to "intelligent" suitors rather than "stupid" suitors, and education strongly supported the intellect factor. After all, they were not allowed to join guilds, and as such had more limited career choices [banking, law practice, etc.]. Any resulting genetic preference would have been coincidental.
I also theorize that because Jews were so often victimized [Inquisition and the like], they were forced to strategize in order to ensure survival. This would have created another need for higher intelligence. It is also possible that it is the other way around, and Jews survived so many onslaughts by being naturally better at it, but this is just one possibility.
I also theorize that because Jews were so often victimized [Inquisition and the like], they were forced to strategize in order to ensure survival. This would have created another need for higher intelligence. It is also possible that it is the other way around, and Jews survived so many onslaughts by being naturally better at it, but this is just one possibility.
Spoken like Mel himself:
http://www.ikehillah.org/melbrooksonbeingajew/
Which pretty much leads me to suspect that Mel Brooks *is* ruveyn... In which case I instantly demand him to tell me what the last 5 commandments were! (and why an omnipotent god is hearing impaired???)
LennytheWicked wrote:
It is also possible that the dumb ones were killed off during the aforementioned attacks.
One idea that I cannot shake from my mind is that the Holocaust actually increased the average intelligence among Jews. Since IQ is positively correlated with income (and thus opportunities for emigration), is it entirely implausible that a greater percentage of the more intelligent Jews managed to escape the Holocaust than the less intelligent Jews, thus driving up the average intelligence within the group? Alas, I have no evidence to back this claim...
It would be the ultimate insult against Nazism, though. In their attempt to create an Aryan master race, they *actually* turned the (Askhenazi) Jews into a master race. Not exactly part of the plan, triple H:twisted:?
16 Oct 2012, 5:12 pm
GGPViper wrote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
I disagree with the initial description of a "breeding program."
I believe the crucial word is accidental breeding program.
Before this guy came along, the concepts of genotype and phenotype were poorly understood. And he's from my native country of Denmark. Yippee!
I didn't see an "accidental" part. Hence my confusion.
[/quote]
LennytheWicked wrote:
Jews have traditionally valued education. Fathers were more likely to hand their daughters off to "intelligent" suitors rather than "stupid" suitors, and education strongly supported the intellect factor. After all, they were not allowed to join guilds, and as such had more limited career choices [banking, law practice, etc.]. Any resulting genetic preference would have been coincidental.
I also theorize that because Jews were so often victimized [Inquisition and the like], they were forced to strategize in order to ensure survival. This would have created another need for higher intelligence. It is also possible that it is the other way around, and Jews survived so many onslaughts by being naturally better at it, but this is just one possibility.
I also theorize that because Jews were so often victimized [Inquisition and the like], they were forced to strategize in order to ensure survival. This would have created another need for higher intelligence. It is also possible that it is the other way around, and Jews survived so many onslaughts by being naturally better at it, but this is just one possibility.
Spoken like Mel himself:
http://www.ikehillah.org/melbrooksonbeingajew/
Which pretty much leads me to suspect that Mel Brooks *is* ruveyn... In which case I instantly demand him to tell me what the last 5 commandments were! (and why an omnipotent god is hearing impaired???)[/quote]
Mel Gibson is awesome.
It's one of those common internal Jewish stereotypes. Same as "Two Jews three opinions." It's because they have at least some basis in truth. Some. Not sure how much. [Except two Jews do usually have three opinions. And three Jews have five...and so on and so forth! That one is true.]
Quote:
LennytheWicked wrote:
It is also possible that the dumb ones were killed off during the aforementioned attacks.
One idea that I cannot shake from my mind is that the Holocaust actually increased the average intelligence among Jews. Since IQ is positively correlated with income (and thus opportunities for emigration), is it entirely implausible that a greater percentage of the more intelligent Jews managed to escape the Holocaust than the less intelligent Jews, thus driving up the average intelligence within the group? Alas, I have no evidence to back this claim...
It would be the ultimate insult against Nazism, though. In their attempt to create an Aryan master race, they *actually* turned the (Askhenazi) Jews into a master race. Not exactly part of the plan, triple H:twisted:?
Well one way to check that is by looking at the Nobel Prizes and seeing how many winners were Jewish before the holocaust and how many were Jewish after.
It is not, however, the first instance. The Jews constantly had their religion outlawed, but practiced it anyway. Not only did that take audacity/bravery/stupidity, it also took intelligence, because somehow they made it work without dying too often. The Greeks didn't like the Jews, the Romans didn't like the Jews, the Roman Catholics didn't like the Jews, no one else liked the Jews...
Years of holocaust-style treatment minus the gas chambers and labor camps. Except in the instances that slavery occurred.
16 Oct 2012, 10:44 pm
ruveyn wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
The torah is far more advanced then most text's in 2012, and certainly more advanced then most texts pre 1999, 1899, 1799, and most likely 2099 for precisely the reasons you state, and you have to believe that this early start they had 3000 years ago in logic and reason and their inclusiveness as a group had to have lead to the genetic prowess that Jews now carry.
.
The first few chapters of b'rayshis (Genesis) and their account of how the earth came to be is pure late bronze age mythology. Even so, the ethics embedded in Torah was far superior to any of the surrounding nations and even today they are pretty much the Gold Standard.
Honest. The Earth is far older than 5273 years.
ruveyn
You're saying that Jews were better ethicists than the Greeks? Your neighbors, the Samaritans, were very similar.
But, wait a tick. What about what the Hebrews did to the Midianites? That wasn't really very nice.
Last edited by ArrantPariah on 17 Oct 2012, 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kraichgauer
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16 Oct 2012, 11:54 pm
ArrantPariah wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
The torah is far more advanced then most text's in 2012, and certainly more advanced then most texts pre 1999, 1899, 1799, and most likely 2099 for precisely the reasons you state, and you have to believe that this early start they had 3000 years ago in logic and reason and their inclusiveness as a group had to have lead to the genetic prowess that Jews now carry.
.
The first few chapters of b'rayshis (Genesis) and their account of how the earth came to be is pure late bronze age mythology. Even so, the ethics embedded in Torah was far superior to any of the surrounding nations and even today they are pretty much the Gold Standard.
Honest. The Earth is far older than 5273 years.
ruveyn
You're saying that Jews were better ethicists than the Greeks? Your neighbors, the Samarians, must have been very similar.
But, wait a tick. What about what the Hebrews did to the Midianites? That wasn't really very nice.
I forget, but did they do something like cut off the Midianites' foreskins? (If so, ouch!)
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
MarketAndChurch
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17 Oct 2012, 2:20 am
GGPViper wrote:
It would be the ultimate insult against Nazism, though. In their attempt to create an Aryan master race, they *actually* turned the (Askhenazi) Jews into a master race. Not exactly part of the plan, triple H:twisted:?
and at the end of century, there will be more of them in Israel then Germans in Germany. It is quite eery.
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17 Oct 2012, 7:19 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
I forget, but did they do something like cut off the Midianites' foreskins? (If so, ouch!)
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Numbers 31 wrote:
They attacked Midian, as the Lord had commanded Moses, and killed all the men, 8 including the five kings of Midian: Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba. They also killed Balaam son of Beor.
The people of Israel captured the Midianite women and children, took their cattle and their flocks, plundered all their wealth, and burned all their cities and camps. They took all the loot that they had captured, including the prisoners and the animals, and brought them to Moses and Eleazar and to the community of the people of Israel, who were at the camp on the plains of Moab across the Jordan from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar, and all the other leaders of the community went out of the camp to meet the army. Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of battalions and companies, who had returned from the war. He asked them, “Why have you kept all the women alive? Remember that it was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the Lord. That was what brought the epidemic on the Lord's people. So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse, but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins. Now all of you who have killed anyone or have touched a corpse must stay outside the camp for seven days. On the third day and on the seventh day purify yourselves and the women you have captured. You must also purify every piece of clothing and everything made of leather, goats' hair, or wood.”
....
The Lord said to Moses, “You and Eleazar, together with the other leaders of the community, are to count everything that has been captured, including the prisoners and the animals. Divide what was taken into two equal parts, one part for the soldiers and the other part for the rest of the community. From the part that belongs to the soldiers, withhold as a tax for the Lord one out of every five hundred prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to Eleazar the priest as a special contribution to the Lord. From the part given to the rest of the people, take one out of every fifty prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to the Levites who are in charge of the Lord's Tent.” Moses and Eleazar did what the Lord commanded.
The following is a list of what was captured by the soldiers, in addition to what they kept for themselves: 675,000 sheep and goats, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and 32,000 virgins. The half share of the soldiers was 337,500 sheep and goats, of which 675 were the tax for the Lord; 36,000 cattle for the soldiers, of which 72 were the tax for the Lord; 30,500 donkeys for the soldiers, of which 61 were the tax for the Lord; and 16,000 virgins for the soldiers, of which 32 were the tax for the Lord. 41 So Moses gave Eleazar the tax as a special contribution to the Lord, as the Lord had commanded.
The share of the community was the same as that for the soldiers: 337,500 sheep and goats, 36,000 cattle, 30,500 donkeys, and 16,000 virgins. From this share Moses took one out of every fifty prisoners and animals, and as the Lord had commanded, gave them to the Levites who were in charge of the Lord's Tent.
The people of Israel captured the Midianite women and children, took their cattle and their flocks, plundered all their wealth, and burned all their cities and camps. They took all the loot that they had captured, including the prisoners and the animals, and brought them to Moses and Eleazar and to the community of the people of Israel, who were at the camp on the plains of Moab across the Jordan from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar, and all the other leaders of the community went out of the camp to meet the army. Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of battalions and companies, who had returned from the war. He asked them, “Why have you kept all the women alive? Remember that it was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the Lord. That was what brought the epidemic on the Lord's people. So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse, but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins. Now all of you who have killed anyone or have touched a corpse must stay outside the camp for seven days. On the third day and on the seventh day purify yourselves and the women you have captured. You must also purify every piece of clothing and everything made of leather, goats' hair, or wood.”
....
The Lord said to Moses, “You and Eleazar, together with the other leaders of the community, are to count everything that has been captured, including the prisoners and the animals. Divide what was taken into two equal parts, one part for the soldiers and the other part for the rest of the community. From the part that belongs to the soldiers, withhold as a tax for the Lord one out of every five hundred prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to Eleazar the priest as a special contribution to the Lord. From the part given to the rest of the people, take one out of every fifty prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to the Levites who are in charge of the Lord's Tent.” Moses and Eleazar did what the Lord commanded.
The following is a list of what was captured by the soldiers, in addition to what they kept for themselves: 675,000 sheep and goats, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and 32,000 virgins. The half share of the soldiers was 337,500 sheep and goats, of which 675 were the tax for the Lord; 36,000 cattle for the soldiers, of which 72 were the tax for the Lord; 30,500 donkeys for the soldiers, of which 61 were the tax for the Lord; and 16,000 virgins for the soldiers, of which 32 were the tax for the Lord. 41 So Moses gave Eleazar the tax as a special contribution to the Lord, as the Lord had commanded.
The share of the community was the same as that for the soldiers: 337,500 sheep and goats, 36,000 cattle, 30,500 donkeys, and 16,000 virgins. From this share Moses took one out of every fifty prisoners and animals, and as the Lord had commanded, gave them to the Levites who were in charge of the Lord's Tent.
And, what exactly got God the Father in such a tiff? Because, in Numbers 25, some Israelite guys were having orgies with some Midianite girls.
The Israelites even murdered Balaam, son of Beor, who spent Numbers 22-24 sucking up to the Israelites big time.
17 Oct 2012, 7:40 am
ArrantPariah wrote:
But, wait a tick. What about what the Hebrews did to the Midianites? That wasn't really very nice.
The Judaism that exists today is the result of Rabbinic interpretation and the oral tradition. Judaism has been purge of the nastiness clearly display by the Israelites in biblical times. I would even go as far as to say the Israelites between the exodus from Egypt and the founding of Jerusalem as an Isrealitish city, were as bad ass as the most extreme Jihadi Muslim groups you find today. If they had 747's in those days I am sure a group of Isrealite commandos would have hijacked it and rammed it into the biggest Cana'anite building they could fine.
Judaism has been purged and cleansed. To an extent so has Christianity. Christians have reconciled themselves to the secular order, pretty. However Islam is still unpurged and untamed.
ruvey
17 Oct 2012, 8:13 am
ruveyn wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
But, wait a tick. What about what the Hebrews did to the Midianites? That wasn't really very nice.
The Judaism that exists today is the result of Rabbinic interpretation and the oral tradition. Judaism has been purge of the nastiness clearly display by the Israelites in biblical times. I would even go as far as to say the Israelites between the exodus from Egypt and the founding of Jerusalem as an Isrealitish city, were as bad ass as the most extreme Jihadi Muslim groups you find today. If they had 747's in those days I am sure a group of Isrealite commandos would have hijacked it and rammed it into the biggest Cana'anite building they could fine.
Judaism has been purged and cleansed. To an extent so has Christianity. Christians have reconciled themselves to the secular order, pretty. However Islam is still unpurged and untamed.
ruvey
Are you retracting your prior claim?
ruveyn wrote:
Even so, the ethics embedded in Torah was far superior to any of the surrounding nations and even today they are pretty much the Gold Standard.
17 Oct 2012, 8:48 am
ArrantPariah wrote:
Are you retracting your prior claim?
Not at all. After all the nastiness is purged what you have left is the ethics and they stand up to any ethical system in history. The fundamental ethical principle in Judaism is: Do not do to others what you hate done to you. By the time of R. Hillel this was well establish for the Jews in the Dispersion.
The reason why Judaism was purged and its warrior pride reduced is because Ancient Israel lost several wars and it people were taken captive or exiled to other lands. This is the DIaspora. To prevent extinction of Judaism the Rabbis worked out a way for Jews to live in a strange and still be Jews. This meant that Jews could not push their neighbors around or be a threat to them.
From this we get the current modality of Judaism which is, in general, civil, law abiding and ethical.
To put it bluntly, Jews learned some humility by having the sh*t kicked out of them. This has yet to happen to Islam.
ruveyn
Last edited by ruveyn on 17 Oct 2012, 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
17 Oct 2012, 11:46 am
ruveyn wrote:
To put it bluntly, Jews learned some humility by having the sh*t kicked out of the. This has yet to happen to Islam.
ruveyn
ruveyn
Islam actually managed to go in the opposite direction. When Muhammad (if he ever existed) was living in Mecca, he was small town player, so the Quranic verses from this part of his life were somewhat tolerant towards others. But still so intolerant that he got kicked out. Then he moved to Medina and became the boss, at which point he went bat-shit crazy.
17 Oct 2012, 12:52 pm
Part of what makes Judaism truly unique, I think, is the Lamentations and Prophets section, which carry the message "We were really, really naughty, and truly deserved to be slaughtered and enslaved." That, and the attachment to an ancestral homeland.
The Zoroastrians also got their butts kicked, but I don't know if they consider that as a just punishment for having done something naughty, nor if they have any longing to return to Persia.
17 Oct 2012, 1:14 pm
GGPViper wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
So, I think that is a important thing to notice. If you get to claim that having a culture like the Jewish one will improve your chances of winning a Nobel prize, then I get to claim that having a culture with easy access to education and welfare will improve your chances of not being a criminal. It is easy!
But how does this dispute ruveyn's original claim in any way?
It doesn't. I just point out that there is a contradiction between two of the things ruveyn likes to claim. One is that being born in a certain culture alters the probabilities of what you could become and the other is that everybody has free will. Due to the contradiction, at least one of them is probably wrong...
edited, cause I guess the "?" would get misinterpreted.
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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 17 Oct 2012, 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
17 Oct 2012, 2:17 pm
Vexcalibur wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
So, I think that is a important thing to notice. If you get to claim that having a culture like the Jewish one will improve your chances of winning a Nobel prize, then I get to claim that having a culture with easy access to education and welfare will improve your chances of not being a criminal. It is easy!
But how does this dispute ruveyn's original claim in any way?
It doesn't? I just point out that there is a contradiction between two of the things ruveyn likes to claim. One is that being born in a certain culture alters the probabilities of what you could become and the other is that everybody has free will. Due to thea contradiction, at least one of them is probably wrong...
Those are not contradictory. You can be born into, let's say a family with a long military tradition, it would increase your chance of ending up in the military, yet it wouldn't mean you didn't have free will if you joined the military.
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17 Oct 2012, 4:27 pm
ArrantPariah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I forget, but did they do something like cut off the Midianites' foreskins? (If so, ouch!)
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Numbers 31 wrote:
They attacked Midian, as the Lord had commanded Moses, and killed all the men, 8 including the five kings of Midian: Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba. They also killed Balaam son of Beor.
The people of Israel captured the Midianite women and children, took their cattle and their flocks, plundered all their wealth, and burned all their cities and camps. They took all the loot that they had captured, including the prisoners and the animals, and brought them to Moses and Eleazar and to the community of the people of Israel, who were at the camp on the plains of Moab across the Jordan from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar, and all the other leaders of the community went out of the camp to meet the army. Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of battalions and companies, who had returned from the war. He asked them, “Why have you kept all the women alive? Remember that it was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the Lord. That was what brought the epidemic on the Lord's people. So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse, but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins. Now all of you who have killed anyone or have touched a corpse must stay outside the camp for seven days. On the third day and on the seventh day purify yourselves and the women you have captured. You must also purify every piece of clothing and everything made of leather, goats' hair, or wood.”
....
The Lord said to Moses, “You and Eleazar, together with the other leaders of the community, are to count everything that has been captured, including the prisoners and the animals. Divide what was taken into two equal parts, one part for the soldiers and the other part for the rest of the community. From the part that belongs to the soldiers, withhold as a tax for the Lord one out of every five hundred prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to Eleazar the priest as a special contribution to the Lord. From the part given to the rest of the people, take one out of every fifty prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to the Levites who are in charge of the Lord's Tent.” Moses and Eleazar did what the Lord commanded.
The following is a list of what was captured by the soldiers, in addition to what they kept for themselves: 675,000 sheep and goats, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and 32,000 virgins. The half share of the soldiers was 337,500 sheep and goats, of which 675 were the tax for the Lord; 36,000 cattle for the soldiers, of which 72 were the tax for the Lord; 30,500 donkeys for the soldiers, of which 61 were the tax for the Lord; and 16,000 virgins for the soldiers, of which 32 were the tax for the Lord. 41 So Moses gave Eleazar the tax as a special contribution to the Lord, as the Lord had commanded.
The share of the community was the same as that for the soldiers: 337,500 sheep and goats, 36,000 cattle, 30,500 donkeys, and 16,000 virgins. From this share Moses took one out of every fifty prisoners and animals, and as the Lord had commanded, gave them to the Levites who were in charge of the Lord's Tent.
The people of Israel captured the Midianite women and children, took their cattle and their flocks, plundered all their wealth, and burned all their cities and camps. They took all the loot that they had captured, including the prisoners and the animals, and brought them to Moses and Eleazar and to the community of the people of Israel, who were at the camp on the plains of Moab across the Jordan from Jericho.
Moses, Eleazar, and all the other leaders of the community went out of the camp to meet the army. Moses became angry with the officers, the commanders of battalions and companies, who had returned from the war. He asked them, “Why have you kept all the women alive? Remember that it was the women who followed Balaam's instructions and at Peor led the people to be unfaithful to the Lord. That was what brought the epidemic on the Lord's people. So now kill every boy and kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse, but keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins. Now all of you who have killed anyone or have touched a corpse must stay outside the camp for seven days. On the third day and on the seventh day purify yourselves and the women you have captured. You must also purify every piece of clothing and everything made of leather, goats' hair, or wood.”
....
The Lord said to Moses, “You and Eleazar, together with the other leaders of the community, are to count everything that has been captured, including the prisoners and the animals. Divide what was taken into two equal parts, one part for the soldiers and the other part for the rest of the community. From the part that belongs to the soldiers, withhold as a tax for the Lord one out of every five hundred prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to Eleazar the priest as a special contribution to the Lord. From the part given to the rest of the people, take one out of every fifty prisoners and the same proportion of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. Give them to the Levites who are in charge of the Lord's Tent.” Moses and Eleazar did what the Lord commanded.
The following is a list of what was captured by the soldiers, in addition to what they kept for themselves: 675,000 sheep and goats, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and 32,000 virgins. The half share of the soldiers was 337,500 sheep and goats, of which 675 were the tax for the Lord; 36,000 cattle for the soldiers, of which 72 were the tax for the Lord; 30,500 donkeys for the soldiers, of which 61 were the tax for the Lord; and 16,000 virgins for the soldiers, of which 32 were the tax for the Lord. 41 So Moses gave Eleazar the tax as a special contribution to the Lord, as the Lord had commanded.
The share of the community was the same as that for the soldiers: 337,500 sheep and goats, 36,000 cattle, 30,500 donkeys, and 16,000 virgins. From this share Moses took one out of every fifty prisoners and animals, and as the Lord had commanded, gave them to the Levites who were in charge of the Lord's Tent.
And, what exactly got God the Father in such a tiff? Because, in Numbers 25, some Israelite guys were having orgies with some Midianite girls.
The Israelites even murdered Balaam, son of Beor, who spent Numbers 22-24 sucking up to the Israelites big time.
Okay, no castration, just ethnic cleansing and genocide.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
18 Oct 2012, 10:28 pm
ruveyn wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Well, Saudis and Jews are basically cousins.
That is right. But the Muslims never developed in accidental breeding program that favors intelligence. So we would expect to find a statistically normal ( Gaussian ) distribution of intelligence in the general Muslim population. There is no cultural institution in Muslim societies that would be accidental breeding programs for intelligence.
ruveyn
Well Islam has the Koranic scholars, but I think scholarship took a back seat to war from basically the beginning of Islam.
18 Oct 2012, 10:50 pm
ruveyn wrote:
The fundamental ethical principle in Judaism is: Do not do to others what you hate done to you.
I think this is very interesting, because in my Christian upbringing, I remember being told that this was one of the "revolutionary" ideas proposed by Jesus, and the sort of idea that got him killed by the Jewish establishment. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it's funny to hear that this was already an established idea.
