Is America heading towards fascism?

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androbot2084
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12 Nov 2012, 7:18 pm

If a white man refused to give up his seat for a white woman he would have received a parking citation at the very most. But Rosa Parks was thrown in jail just because she was black. Until the Libertarians can see these problems I do not trust Libertarians with running the government.

Seabass
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12 Nov 2012, 7:22 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

This is ironic. Libertarians don't want to run the government. They want to control it. Let society fix itself, as it truly did during the civil rights movement.

androbot2084
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12 Nov 2012, 7:26 pm

What if Rosa Parks got life imprisonment ?

Seabass
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12 Nov 2012, 7:31 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

What if Rosa Parks got life imprisonment ?

Only government is capable of that. I believe only truly messed up governments would do something like that. You know, like a fascist or communistic one.

ruveyn
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12 Nov 2012, 8:24 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

What if Rosa Parks got life imprisonment ?

Rosa's seating arrangement was a misdemenor not a felony.

Rosa bravely chose civil disobedience which is a primary non-violent way of opposing an unjust law.

It lead to a boycott of the city buses and that is what finally got rid of "back of the bus" rules. Hit them in the wallet. That is where it hurts the most. The boycott was a good libertarian move, by the way. No violence. Just withhold the patronage which one has a right to do.

ruveyn

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12 Nov 2012, 10:09 pm

Seabass wrote:

androbot2084 wrote:

This is ironic. Libertarians don't want to run the government. They want to control it. Let society fix itself, as it truly did during the civil rights movement.

But society didn't fix itself on it's own. Rather, white people in the south - and in places in the north - by and large rallied against desegregation. It took federal legislation to change the law, and peoples hearts eventually followed.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

RushKing
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12 Nov 2012, 10:30 pm

adb wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Tyranny is tyranny regardless of how small and private it is. A society where people become slaves to land "owners" is not a society I want to live in. Your idea of liberty is ridiculous.

So, to follow your logic to its natural conclusion, you should be able to dictate what I do inside my home. If I don't comply, you will use force to get your way.

I think your idea of tyranny is when someone else tells you what to do. It seems everything is fine when you're the one dictating

I'll take ruveyn's idea of liberty. It respects that he and I may have different opinions.

Private property is a violent cultural construct forced upon individuals. Ownership overland is as crazy as ownership of air. Capitalism is the complete opposite of liberty. I never said I want to dictate anyone. Why are you straw manning? It's the land owners that are doing dictating. Houses are for attended for personal use, the goods served at restaurants are not.

androbot2084
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12 Nov 2012, 10:53 pm

So you think Libertarianism is just Landlordism?

RushKing
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12 Nov 2012, 11:11 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

So you think Libertarianism is just Landlordism?

I think its many things. I think right libertarians are wrong for assuming private property is undeniably legitimate, and that every poor unemployed person is so because of laziness and or mistakes they made in their life. I'm surprised their are libertarian capitalists here considering how many people on the spectrum struggle with the capitalist system. Capitalism seems to work best for hyper social people with lots of connections. I would love the freedom to go out and grow my own food and build my own shelter, but I'm not allowed to do that on any of the land around me. Capitalism is forcing me to be dependent on others, I don't know why so many people think it's individualism.

androbot2084
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12 Nov 2012, 11:49 pm

There are a few successful autistics like Bill Gates but their attitude is "as long as I've got mine who cares about you". If they could just understand that not every autistic can be the next Bill Bates.

About homesteading, the landlords says this is not Biblical and just a bunch of Fidel Castro commie land reform. But I question this.

CSBurks
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12 Nov 2012, 11:58 pm

Yes.

auntblabby
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13 Nov 2012, 1:12 am

androbot2084 wrote:

thank god for bill gates sr. and melinda french gates.

DiscardedWhisper
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13 Nov 2012, 5:21 am

Seabass wrote:

androbot2084 wrote:

So the Libertarians believe if a man sits at the wrong segregated lunch counter that he should be thrown in jail?

No, government should stay out of equation, period. Most forward thinking libertarians would think that the owner of the place where this lunch counter is located is in the wrong. Should he be allowed to exclude those he wishes from dining in his establishment? Yes, unfortunately so. Do those being segregated have the right to protest this lack of equality? Hell yes. I believe that's what they actually did, and faced stiff consequences because of it. But eventually, as it should, they're hard work payed off. Most logical business owners these days know that excluding any type of customer is terrible for business.

To embellish on these points, free market capitalism is a perfect fit to the libertarian mindset because of such a hypothetical situation. The owner in question has the right to refuse service. But if people feel he's doing so simply out of spite, they can actively take a role in spreading word of that kind of behavior. With the idea that if the local markets find distaste in the owner's behavior, they will choose not to patronize and his business will dry up as a result. Alternatively, if the pundit doesn't make his case or is found to be exaggerating or untruthful, the market will ignore him and continue to patronize. This is the idea of "voting with one's dollars".

The other point made is that business men these days are more concerned with business than outdated dogma. A customer is a customer, so long as he has money and is willing to spend it in our establishment.

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13 Nov 2012, 6:21 am

DiscardedWhisper wrote:

Seabass wrote:

androbot2084 wrote:

So the Libertarians believe if a man sits at the wrong segregated lunch counter that he should be thrown in jail?

The fact of the matter is, though, during segregation, white customers wouldn't have withheld their patronage of such businesses. Far from it, they provided a focal point of resistance against desegregation. And keeping blacks second class citizens was more important to many whites in segregated states than even making money. Again, the simple right to eat at the same lunch counter as whites was as much a victory as gaining the right to vote, because it eventually established social equality for black Americans among whites.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

ruveyn
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13 Nov 2012, 8:49 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Which is their right. One has the right to boycott and one has the right not to boycott.

In any case the owner of a restaurant has the right to provide service or withhold service from whomever he pleases. That is the nature of private ownership. Forcing a restaurant owner to cook for someone he does not want around him is involuntary servitude which is prohibited by the 13 th Amendment.

ruveyn

adb
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13 Nov 2012, 9:27 am

RushKing wrote:

Private property is a violent cultural construct forced upon individuals.

Please explain this statement. Private property is a fundamental part of individualism. Without private property, what is the value of the individual? Are you speaking purely of land ownership per your next statement?

Quote:

Ownership overland is as crazy as ownership of air.

What's wrong with owning land or air? If I'm using a certain amount of land or air toward a productive end, should someone else be able to come and remove the efforts of my labor? I can understand that simply planting a flag and claiming ownership might be "crazy", but taking ownership over a natural resource in order to develop it seems entirely reasonable.

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Capitalism is the complete opposite of liberty.

Please explain this statement also. I don't see how capitalism restricts liberty, much less is a complete opposite.

Quote:

I never said I want to dictate anyone. Why are you straw manning? It's the land owners that are doing dictating. Houses are for attended for personal use, the goods served at restaurants are not.

Yes, you did say you want to dictate. Your statement that "tyranny is tyranny, no matter how small it is" was in response to ruveyn's defense of a small business owner's right to choose who he or she serves. You are arguing that the business owner shouldn't have that right. This is dictating what another person does.

There is no straw man argument here. My example is a direct application of your argument with your own qualification.

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