Spanking - abuse or effective

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I wasn't afraid of my grandmother when she was about to spank me. I wanted to avoid the painful little event that was about to follow though. Why would I be afraid of my grandmother when she was about to spank me? I knew what was going to happen, it had happened before, and it was just unpleasant. Unpleasant enough so that I didn't repeat the activity that caused it, but no more fear that I would have for her taking out a splinter or pulling a loose baby tooth, etc.

Agreed. Which is why we distinguish between spanking for which there is a cause and senseless violence.


Appeal to majority.


Agreed. But physical punishment for the sake of behavior modification is a last resort effort when all other attempts at communication and correction fail to reach the child.


Not sure what you mean here exactly, but if you mean what I THINK you mean, I'd say that corporal punishment is...well, I've already answered that. It is a last-resort measure.



Straw man argument. I never said I beat any of my children. You are being illogical.


More straw man arguments here. I don't beat my child. And a lot of your questions here are just plain irrelevant.


I still don't understand...what do you mean by "There were no explanations needed to the rules to argue about them"? Children push boundaries and challenge rules all the time. That's just part of childhood. And parents/educators/guardians have the duty to respond appropriately to correct the behavior. That doesn't automatically mean that the child gets a spanking, but so long as it is effective I take no issue with it.


Er, you're missing the point. This isn't about ice cream. It's about getting to the root of the problem. If the child is giving me a hard time over something unrelated when the real problem is the child didn't get something she wanted after school, having an understanding of the real problem, which may or may not be ice cream, is the first step in dealing with it. It's inappropriate for me as a parent to get derailed over something as silly as ice cream. No amount of "explanations" are going to solve what you believe is an intellectual problem when the real issue has to do with a child's determination to get her way.

And besides, "ice cream" is just a hypothetical. I'm not referring to a specific event, just anything that could come up.


I'm losing my temper? Another straw man argument. I don't recall stating that I beat children over ice cream.


Straw man argument again. Who said anything about beating a child "until it bleeds and teeth are loosen"? That's not what corporal punishment is about.

If you have a state-supported child welfare system in your country, then good for you! Child welfare in the USA is a joke. Often kids end up in situations worse than the ones they left.


I see. The only issue I have with this is the idea that a government agent can come in at any time and tell you how to raise your family which gives the government unlimited access to your home life. It's authoritarian. It's very Orwellian, and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that at all.


Who gets to define what's "normal"? Spanking was just a normal part of life where I grew up.


Agreed. I don't deal with special needs kids, but I'd have a real issue with using punishment methods that might actually make matters worse. Not all children are the same, after all.


Well, we aren't talking about "beatings" here. But in terms of corporal punishment, my general rule of thumb is to never touch a child in anger.


That's well and good if you're mentally ill. I can understand that. I don't think a mentally ill person should strike a child in any manner. But I'd also call into question a mentally ill person's ability to have many dealings with children in the first place. It depends on the severity of the condition, of course. But if I need help dealing with a child, my first response is to seek the help of another capable adult, NOT call CPS (Child Protective Services in the USA). I mean, even if CPS actually did a good job, I just think that child-rearing is best left to the child's parents and not a state system.

You're creating a straw man argument over "beating" children when abusive beating isn't what's being discussed. Parents who love their children have an eye on the future by doing their best to ensure that their children become responsible adults. Parents who do not care about their children won't concern themselves with how their kids turn out, i.e. they won't discipline their children. Children aren't always happy with the decisions of adults, nor are they always happy with their circumstances at any given time. A policy of appeasement is no guarantee that children will remain happy, as fickle as children are, and may even be detrimental to their development.


That's YOUR experience. My children are willing to go hungry on a whim. It's better to teach children to eat what they have than to starve. Although rare, sometimes consequences are necessary to get positive results. Besides, we caught our daughter stockpiling candy in her room. She was refusing to eat in order to indulge in unhealthy, sugary treats. Not only did we spank her, we also got rid of nearly all candy in the house...including her brother's candy. If she couldn't have gotten candy on her own, she would have stolen it (yes, we KNOW this). Sadly sometimes what affects one person affects the entire family by extension.

And by the way, spanking her over candy was not a first resort response. We've caught her sneaking candy before and gave her a verbal reminder to stop it. We caught her stealing her brother's candy and issued a warning. The third incident and refusing to eat anything else goes beyond simple disobedience. The reason this is such a big deal to us is that insulin-dependent diabetes is prevalent on both sides of our families. Part of the motivation behind why I went over a month without eating was because, unlike my father, I want to live long enough to see my grandchildren. I can't do that if I'm dead, and I don't want to get sick to the point doctors have to cut off my arms and legs. If I have that much fear of those things happening to me, I certainly don't want my own children going through that are even having to live with the difficulties of keeping body weight under control the way I do. And, yes, we've explained this to our children.


Trouble is you actually care. Not all children are going to see it that way.


Not all children are like you. Like I said, I have children who'd sometimes prefer to starve than eat good-tasting food that's actually good for them.


Some children don't care about free time. Some children just simply won't do the work and don't care if that just means early bedtime. Also, as the night wears on, so does drowsiness and the inability to focus on work. You can try all you want to get a small child to stay up past bedtime, but they WILL fall asleep where they stand. Sleep deprivation can also count as child abuse. These methods don't always consistently work.


Straw man argument over "beating." You really need to stop.

I want changes in behavior. It's not my job to carry a child across the intersection. It's my job to teach my kids how to cross the street safely. They have feet. They can move themselves. And it is precisely BECAUSE I'm enabled in the spinal column that I can do this.


Doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, picking up a child and carrying the child is an exercise in force. Spanking a child is an exercise in force. I'd rather teach the child to do the right thing than to have to carry my child, and that extends to all aspects of life, not just crossing the street.


If the children are unable to see, they risk injury to themselves. A burnout is also out of the norm, so it's unreasonable to expect the children to respond as in a normal situation. They MUST comply with the safety plan without question until a safe environment can be established.


And maybe one day an asteroid will fall out of the sky making this whole discussion irrelevant. So what??? If I've done my job, my kids will be grateful that I cared about the kind of adults they grow up to be and none of this will even matter. My father was verbally abusive and whipped me with a belt, most of the time I had no idea what I did, and I never understood why his first reaction was beating me with a belt. That was going on into my early teens, and he died not long after that. I'd gotten just old enough and just big enough to start hitting back. I don't want that from my own children, and my own children love me. No, I'm not worried about it. Spanking children past a certain point is largely ineffective. I'm aware of that. But while it IS effective, it remains an option.


All of this is irrelevant. We're not discussing punishment for adults. We're discussing punishment for children.


Irrelevant. Has nothing to do with why on-demand explanations are owed to children, nor does it answer the question why children deserve on-demand explanations.


Irrelevant. There is a difference between supplying necessities such as food, clothing, housing, etc., and giving in to a child's stall tactics. "Explanations" are often luxuries we don't always have in various situations.

About beaturiful things as the clouds or about the stars and about such normal, boring things as "Why it isnt supposed to eat sweeties before midmeal."


I'm a parent, so in a sense, yes, all of the above...


An emergency is any situation out of the norm that requires immediate attention. Could be anything from a kitchen fire to a knee abrasion. Certain types of emergencies, as I said before, can be prepared for by having a safety plan, i.e. lights going out at night, and it's quite simple: Nobody move until instructed otherwise. Or if a tornado has been located nearby, you have 15 seconds to grab a blanket, one stuffed or plush toy, and get in the van so we can get to a safe place away from the storm. Less severe emergencies, like a wasp sting or skinned knee may not carry the same sense of urgency, but we no less have to stop what we're doing to deal with it. Failure to comply could lead to worse consequences than a spanking, such as permanent injury or even loss of life depending on the circumstances.


Sure, but that's YOUR experience and it doesn't reflect on people as a whole. Money is meaningless to my children. Tangible rewards are meaningless to them. You don't get a toy because you failed to do a chore, big deal. Besides, I think that rewards for chores amounts to bribery and teaches the wrong lesson. Adults don't get rewarded for doing things they're supposed to do anyway. Does that mean your child will stop washing dishes when he or she is alone as an adult and isn't getting paid to do it?

I mean, it's all really irrelevant. You're saying you don't need to discuss doing things for your mom. That's fine. I don't need to discuss things with my children, either. They will comply or face punishment, whatever form that takes.


More straw man argumentation. Nobody is talking about beating a child to a bloody pulp here.

I represent my family by modeling the behavior I expect from my family outside the home. I don't want people to see how ugly my children CAN be, and I don't believe in publicly humiliating my children. That kind of thing should be taken care of privately so that we know how to show others our very best. If spanking is necessary, I take no issue with punishing my kids in public. However, that kind of thing if necessary has to be done quickly. We want to correct our children, not make spectacles of ourselves or draw unwanted attention.



All irrelevant. I'm well aware that children can be cranky. We teach our children that there is no excuse for poor behavior. NONE. Didn't get enough sleep? Why? We'll have a few minutes in the car on our way to our next stop. Get a 30 minute nap while you can. But you'll hang on just a few more minutes until then and put a smile one your face the whole time.


Are you speaking from your own experience? Or just making that up as an example?

My point is that a child's behavior is a reflection of parental expectations. I don't really care what people think of me if they disagree with my methods. Those aren't the kinds of people I want to associate myself with, anyway. What people DO see is that our kids are remarkably well-behaved for their age and that we take pride in how we present ourselves in front of others. Given what I do for a living, image is very important. It's not that I particularly care about impressing people and getting attention, but I am in a position in which the behavior of my children could negatively impact my reputation and cost me my livelihood.


Another straw man. I never said that.

What I said was that I discipline my children and will use whatever means are necessary. And it's not for the sake of people having a good opinion of me--it's for the sake of character-building so my children will be successful as adults. Part of that means teaching kids that the face they put on in public affects how people form opinions of them and their family, and certain things are best left alone for the sake of corporate solidarity.


Behaving in what way? Properly disciplining my children? I get nothing but admiration from others in regards to my personal behavior and for the behavior of my children. I'm not posing any threats to my family, and I expect my wife to call me out on it if I ever did.


Straw man.


Irrelevant.


Any given person in my family is free to think what they will. They are NOT free to DO as they will, however, if what they want means behaving inappropriately. There is no rule in my house against being kind, speaking kind words, helping around the house, reading books, practicing piano, playing quietly in your room with your toys, and so forth. If my children want to snuggle with me on the couch before bedtime, I'm perfectly fine with that. I never push my children away from me unless I'm dealing with something or someone that demands my attention at the moment.

And I really don't care if my children speak their mind as long as they do so respectfully. Bring bold accusations against me in front of other family or friends and calling me out like that isn't the best approach to getting their way. If you have a problem with me, you'll address me in private. You can even scream your head off at me in private and not worry about retaliation. Setting someone up for public embarrassment isn't the way to go, and for the most part I don't even do that with my children. Sure, I've had my kids challenge me in a public place. Rather than get into a screaming match over it, I escorted the offending child to the back and demonstrated that I'll execute consequences outside the home just as quickly as inside the home.

I'm NOT all that concerned with "happiness." I'm not going to withhold my children's rights to feel a wide range of emotions. The world is a hard place to live in. Teaching them otherwise is selling them a delusion. Now, sure, I'll protect them from many of the world's dangers as much as I possibly can, but they have to learn that if the world is to become a better place for everyone, THEY have to come to terms with it on their own and make their own choices to improve the status quo. Modifying behavior by implementing unpleasant consequences when and where warranted is only a part of that process. They don't learn it otherwise.

I know plenty of parents who don't spank, nor are they consistent with regular discipline at all. Their kids may go to the best schools, but their attitudes and behaviors stink. We choose to teach humility and compassion instead. Consistent discipline is part and parcel to establishing any desired behavioral patterns. That we have better-behaved kids than other "perfect parents" I believe speaks volumes for our parenting abilities.


Straw man.





Ad hominem.


Just more ad hominem and straw man argumentation.


That doesn't even make sense.

What I can say about authority is that we are all in positions of authority to some extent. My 1-year old places demands on me that I can't escape, as do my wife and two older children. The important thing about wielding authority is understanding how to do so wisely. Yes, part of my role involves physical punishment. My children accept that and understand that they receive it because of things they do that they know are wrong, not because I on a whim just feel like beating up on them. But I also remind them that this is only a tiny part of their lives and half the point is getting them to understand what being in a position of power is like and how to handle power in their own adult lives.some 13 years from now. My oldest child, by being the oldest, bears immensely more responsibility than his sister or brother. My daughter has more responsibility than the baby. The baby has no responsibility...yet...for obvious reasons. But when he is old enough to distinguish right from wrong, he still won't bear quite the burden that his older siblings share. If we decide to have another child, our current youngest will have more responsibility than the new baby. Parents have to model the behavior of effective leaders if they expect their children to also be effective leaders. Effective discipline plays a role in shaping a child's abilities not just to follow orders but also to gain the wisdom to give orders and command the attention of others to carry those orders out. As a family, we seek to create synergistic relationships with our children rather than confrontational relationships. Teaching and discipline methods have to be geared towards cultivating a spirit of like-mindedness within the household. We want our children to develop their own synthesis of our methods to become effective leaders themselves.


What exactly do I need physical punishment for? If I get "old and weird" and need round-the-clock care, I'm prepared to accept that. It's not my children's place to "punish" me. Hopefully by that point they'll have their own families and children to worry about they won't have time to worry about me.

And finally, much of what you've written is highly fallacious reasoning. You're building a case mostly on straw man arguments--and in case you don't know what that means, it is this: You're arguing against abusively "beating" children, which no one here is going to argue against. You're painting a picture of "spanking" as beating a child to a bloody pulp, breaking bones, knocking out teeth, etc. that no one is going disagree is wrong. You don't get to change the argument to something you know you can win. Less mature people will fall for that trick, but I won't. Also, you're employing some ad hominem to support your case rather than attacking the idea of spanking, and that won't work either. I admit I'm not the most logical person on the planet, but I do make the effort. If you want to continue this discussion and be taken seriously, I suggest you do the same.

Actually I find it a waste of time to argue with someone when they don't listen to you and they keep arguing about stuff that has never even happened or you aren't even talking about and they keep twisting your words or not getting what you are saying. It's been said clearly now a spanking is not all about beating your child or dropping heavy objects on them or knocking their teeth out or slamming them into things, etc, and if she still insists that is what a spanking is, no use arguing with her. Just a waste of time IMO.

I find when people have clouded views, it's very hard to get them to understand what you are saying and nearly impossible because they keep twisting what you say due to their clouded views and I suspect her childhood had something to do with it. She may have been a victim of abuse and that is what PTSD does to people. So I avoid arguing with them because there is no point. I may say my thing and then be done with it because I would be going around in circles talking to a brick wall and I don't care what they think of me even if their views are wrong about what I am saying and they project and assume I am doing what they think I am doing.


I often don't argue with people who are strongly against spankings because it's a waste of time and never worth it for the reasons I already said in this post. I just say my thing and be done with it. Not say it over and over.

I don't see how my post could be in bad taste when you brag about your "beatings". If you really had been beaten senseless by an adult in a drunken rage or something of that sort I figure you wouldn't joke about it unless there is something really really wrong with you.

Maybe when you learn to take it you can dish it out.
It's not about me. I don't take myself that seriously here but you do to the extreme.
'Nuff said.

So I'm not allowed to have a sense of humor while you are allowed to say whatever you want.

Since when do you have a sense of humor???
And if you ever get one it might take the rest of us a while to get used to it.
I'm not going to go keep going back and forth on this thread with you.

Who is "the rest of us"?

You've gone off topic again.

The topic is the beating of children, and NOT whether anyone does or does not possess a sense of humour.

Now, get back to reminiscences of childhood thrashings, or prepare to get spanked by a moderator.

Indeed... If we can't de-rail this thread into kinky territory, then *no* de-rail should be allowed...

The fact that you not only dote on child spankings yourself but insist that others do speaks volumes that are un-flattering.

Kindly stick to the topic at hand.

/\ There's something wrong with you but whatever...........

You're still off topic.

Sorry, but what a s**t and nonsense. The same lousy, dumb excuses where used from my father, to excuse his own failures and misbehavement. "No its not my fault that I do the failure and spank my child. No my wrong behavement its the childs faults."

So I dont know, but I seem to have schizophrenic diseases or whatever, because I am questioning myself why my mother simply needed to talk to me, and my educators in border schools didnt even understand why the hell I should be a problem child, when they never had a problem with me in 5 years. Could be because of them not being total dumbass. Or maybe there was another child that looked like me, but had a complete different behavement. The only idiot and a**hole ever having a problem was that idiot dumbass of a father who was simply to dumb, to mindweak and to shitheaded to educate a child. And because of him being unable to go to a doctor to work on his self esteem problem, he also simple was too dumb and to shitheaded to accept on his own, that HE is the problem, HE was the one misbehaving and the one that needed to get beaten according to his own rules.

So please, explain to me: How the hell is it possible, that I leave my home and my fathers presence and suddenly all the problems "I" create disappear? Do you think an alien kidnapped me and changed me with a clone? So I existed on, so if I was producing all the problems, how the hell can it be that all the problems vanished from one minute to the other, that I wasnt confronted any longer with my s**thead dumbass father? And why on earth was he the only one, that thought that I was behaving not aceptable? Why was it the same with my sister, getting A grades all the time, being a favorite of the teachers, .... but no in his eyes she is an unacceptable child that needs beating from now to then? Why did my grades go up from horrible to ok, the moment I was able to leave this shitpiece of an organic father?

Please tell me, because I simply dont understand why all the problem "I" produced simply vanished the moment this s**thead, that was the only one that could see all that problems, simply vanished out of my life? The moment this a**hole was no longer educating me, the moment the so called "problem child" that noone called a problem child beside him, disappeared.

Sorry, but no. If people are too dumb to educate their children propper its ok, because noone is perfect. But instead of seeking help to do job better, to create a dreamworld for the children, and blame the children to being responsible for the own failures and problems, definitely is not acceptable. The only problem "I" had, was the problem that I refused to accept the wrong behavement of my father. And it was right to do so, because if I had as my sister did, it would have ruined my life as it has my sisters who cant accept herself until nowadays, because of never being good enough.

Sorry, but no excuses for lousy parents, that are pushing their own failures upon their children, because of them being so sick that they are not able to face themselves as not being perfect. Better blame the child and beat it, instead of simply accepting: "Ok, I have to work on my behaviour. Lets see where I can get some help."

This is the problem. You think what your father meant by 'spanking' and what everyone else means are the same. You think this thread is about your father, but it isn't.