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MCalavera
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04 Jun 2013, 7:55 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Boo, you can't post that crap here. Photos of dead bodies are a no-no.


I know it's against your culture values to see such pics in the mainstream press, in mine it isn't. So yeah, maybe what I did is against WP's rules.

But sometimes such pics need to be shoved on your faces to prove a point.


Yeah, the news in Lebanon is sometimes worse than watching Traces of Death shocker film series.



MCalavera
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04 Jun 2013, 8:01 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/saudi-arabia/saudi-prince-forks-out-15m-at-disneyland-paris-1.1192212

Doesn't he deserve to be knocked by some rebellion?


Why? Because he is rich? That is not politics or ethics talking. That is envy.

ruveyn


And from where you think he gets all this money? From his hard work? From the land's oil of course!

Those money should be invested elsewhere in KSA instead of personal entertainment.


I hope the rebellion happens in Saudi Arabia as well. Ooh, but now some Americans are getting terrified by the idea.



KSA is kind of hopeless though, it needs a women full scale revolution more than anything else. I have far much more faith in the Iranian people than KSA's.


Don't forget Americans need the oil as well.



Tequila
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04 Jun 2013, 8:07 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Boo, you can't post that crap here. Photos of dead bodies are a no-no.


I know it's against your culture values to see such pics in the mainstream press, in mine it isn't. So yeah, maybe what I did is against WP's rules.

But sometimes such pics need to be shoved on your faces to prove a point.


I'm not personally objecting to it. I don't care if you put that stuff on here - I'm well aware of the bloody photos that are splashed over Arab papers. Frankly, I do think that our news services offensively whitewash what happens in the world, and censor what happens into irrelevance. Doesn't the way that Arab countries do it just desensitise people to it though? One can't win.

MCavalera wrote:
Yeah, the news in Lebanon is sometimes worse than watching Traces of Death shocker film series.


I take it the stonings, the shootings, the rapes etc etc are simply a feature of news media in Leb?



MCalavera
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04 Jun 2013, 8:31 am

Tequila wrote:
MCavalera wrote:
Yeah, the news in Lebanon is sometimes worse than watching Traces of Death shocker film series.


I take it the stonings, the shootings, the rapes etc etc are simply a feature of news media in Leb?


Not to that extent, but videoing dead corpses even of children is a common thing on the news there.

That said, it's been a while since I was last there, so things may have changed (but I doubt it).



The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Jun 2013, 8:34 am

Tequila wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Boo, you can't post that crap here. Photos of dead bodies are a no-no.


I know it's against your culture values to see such pics in the mainstream press, in mine it isn't. So yeah, maybe what I did is against WP's rules.

But sometimes such pics need to be shoved on your faces to prove a point.


I'm not personally objecting to it. I don't care if you put that stuff on here - I'm well aware of the bloody photos that are splashed over Arab papers. Frankly, I do think that our news services offensively whitewash what happens in the world, and censor what happens into irrelevance. Doesn't the way that Arab countries do it just desensitise people to it though? One can't win.



This is an endless debate, the same psychological debate whether violence in movies/games desensitize people or not.
Personally, I can't look at such pics more than fractions of seconds despite their frequency in the Arab media, I scroll away fast so I don't think I am desensitized.

But I do think that the victims' faces should be hidden at least, for the sake of parents/relatives who might be reading the news.


Quote:
I take it the stonings, the shootings, the rapes etc etc are simply a feature of news media in Leb?


Lol not to that extent and not just in Leb but most of the Middle East too, you surely read al Jaziraa and Al Arabiya too.

Much of the Israeli press isn't that picture-sensitive btw.



The_Face_of_Boo
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04 Jun 2013, 8:50 am

MCalavera wrote:
UN report:
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies ... -58_en.pdf

I find this quote quite interesting:

Quote:
The violations and abuses committed by anti-Government armed groups did not, however, reach the intensity and scale of those committed by Government forces and affiliated militia.


Of course, I have no doubt.
Jihadists are loose unorganized killer dogs - while the Al-Assad's troops/militants are an organized killing machine, their massacres are planned ahead to achieve a certain goal. No wonder the later would be more deadly.



MCalavera
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04 Jun 2013, 8:53 am

I remember as a kid in Lebanon when the South were constantly being attacked by the Israelis (it's still the case, right?) and they used to always put those gory scenes of dead children on LBC news, and my mum would be like:

t2arrjou ya imme. Shoufou aysh 3am ya3emlou bi hal wled (Watch, my children. Look what they're doing to those kids)

This was her way of telling us how spoiled me and siblings were and how other kids in the meantime had it way worse than us.

Although I accept her point, had this happened in the Western world, the authorities would have accused her of child abuse. In Lebanon, it was acceptable.



MCalavera
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04 Jun 2013, 8:54 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
UN report:
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies ... -58_en.pdf

I find this quote quite interesting:

Quote:
The violations and abuses committed by anti-Government armed groups did not, however, reach the intensity and scale of those committed by Government forces and affiliated militia.


Of course, I have no doubt.
Jihadists are loose unorganized killer dogs - while the Al-Assad's troops/militants are an organized killing machine, their massacres are planned ahead to achieve a certain goal. No wonder the later would be more deadly.


Bashar certainly planned well ahead. He is very crafty, I'll give him that.



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04 Jun 2013, 9:25 am

MCalavera wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
UN report:
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies ... -58_en.pdf

I find this quote quite interesting:

Quote:
The violations and abuses committed by anti-Government armed groups did not, however, reach the intensity and scale of those committed by Government forces and affiliated militia.


Of course, I have no doubt.
Jihadists are loose unorganized killer dogs - while the Al-Assad's troops/militants are an organized killing machine, their massacres are planned ahead to achieve a certain goal. No wonder the later would be more deadly.


Bashar certainly planned well ahead. He is very crafty, I'll give him that.



Al Baath regime, like all dictators, always played the sectarian card to remain in power and gains sympathy/approval from the West.


I am sure you knew about Michel Samaha's case, the arrested former minister and Assad's most loyal pet in Lebanon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Samaha

His mission was to bomb Christians and Christian Leaders (ie the Patriarch) - causing a sectarian strife all across the country.


I wouldn't be surprised if the ongoing clashes in Lebanon's Tripoli was ignited by Al Assad too.

http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/7373 ... ite-strife


He's applying the same Divide and Conquer policy in Syria.



Tequila
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04 Jun 2013, 9:37 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
KSA is kind of hopeless though, it needs a women full scale revolution more than anything else.


There doesn't seem anywhere near the women that want a liberal revolution in KSA. A liberal women who did a clandestine IAmA on Reddit said there basically is no hope for major reform in the country and she badly wants out of the country when she can and she wants to live somewhere more tolerant.

I suggested Europe, but to think about where carefully.



MCalavera
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04 Jun 2013, 12:48 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
UN report:
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies ... -58_en.pdf

I find this quote quite interesting:

Quote:
The violations and abuses committed by anti-Government armed groups did not, however, reach the intensity and scale of those committed by Government forces and affiliated militia.


Of course, I have no doubt.
Jihadists are loose unorganized killer dogs - while the Al-Assad's troops/militants are an organized killing machine, their massacres are planned ahead to achieve a certain goal. No wonder the later would be more deadly.


Bashar certainly planned well ahead. He is very crafty, I'll give him that.



Al Baath regime, like all dictators, always played the sectarian card to remain in power and gains sympathy/approval from the West.


I am sure you knew about Michel Samaha's case, the arrested former minister and Assad's most loyal pet in Lebanon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Samaha

His mission was to bomb Christians and Christian Leaders (ie the Patriarch) - causing a sectarian strife all across the country.


I wouldn't be surprised if the ongoing clashes in Lebanon's Tripoli was ignited by Al Assad too.

http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/7373 ... ite-strife


He's applying the same Divide and Conquer policy in Syria.


Yeah, I heard about the recent clash in Tripoli. I have some negative things to say about many Lebanese people in general (out of frustration), but it's against the rules here, so I'll refrain.

As for Michel Samaha, I've heard this name before you mentioned him in this thread but didn't know much about him.

Check this latest news:
http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/06/04/syri ... po-s-river

More innocent people being slaughtered by Syrian government? The witnesses say yes.



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04 Jun 2013, 1:06 pm

Where is Jacoby now. Any new rhetoric tricks up his sleeve?



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04 Jun 2013, 2:31 pm

Rhetorical tricks? I think you have me all wrong. I don't want the US directly or indirectly(thru our "allies" Turkey, the Sauds, Qataris, or Israel) involved in Syria. The US has been at war most of my life and all one has to do is look at history to see what meddling in other countries affairs has gotten us. Blowback is a concept that a lot of Americans are only now understanding, everything we do have a reaction. Iran is the textbook example of what happens when the US meddles, the most liberal populace in the middle east now lives under a theocracy. I believe the west has fanned the flames in Syria and that this war would not be happening as it is now without foreign interference, many more people have and will die because of it. The same in happened in Libya, did all the death and destruction have to happen and are their lives any better for it? The war in Syria will effect more than just Syria, it doesn't end with Assad. I don't trust these rebels but they don't change how I feel about intervening in Syria or anywhere else for that matter. The fact they have questionable associations to say the least with al-Qaeda aligned terrorists is just reason more to stay away. This is an unwinnable conflict, even if the rebels prevail and oust Assad which appears doubtful, they can't govern the country as it is now. The cat is out of the bag, it's not going back in either way. I hope the rebel commanders hold as much sway as you think they do over their fighters because there can't be a total victory, they'll have to negotiate an end. One must accept reality and being realistic isn't always what one would hope for.

Perfect world, how do you see this conflict ending where it doesn't destabilize the entire region and without mass slaughter?



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04 Jun 2013, 3:28 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Rhetorical tricks? I think you have me all wrong. I don't want the US directly or indirectly(thru our "allies" Turkey, the Sauds, Qataris, or Israel) involved in Syria. The US has been at war most of my life and all one has to do is look at history to see what meddling in other countries affairs has gotten us. Blowback is a concept that a lot of Americans are only now understanding, everything we do have a reaction. Iran is the textbook example of what happens when the US meddles, the most liberal populace in the middle east now lives under a theocracy. I believe the west has fanned the flames in Syria and that this war would not be happening as it is now without foreign interference, many more people have and will die because of it. The same in happened in Libya, did all the death and destruction have to happen and are their lives any better for it? The war in Syria will effect more than just Syria, it doesn't end with Assad. I don't trust these rebels but they don't change how I feel about intervening in Syria or anywhere else for that matter. The fact they have questionable associations to say the least with al-Qaeda aligned terrorists is just reason more to stay away. This is an unwinnable conflict, even if the rebels prevail and oust Assad which appears doubtful, they can't govern the country as it is now. The cat is out of the bag, it's not going back in either way. I hope the rebel commanders hold as much sway as you think they do over their fighters because there can't be a total victory, they'll have to negotiate an end. One must accept reality and being realistic isn't always what one would hope for.

Perfect world, how do you see this conflict ending where it doesn't destabilize the entire region and without mass slaughter?


How many times I should repeat the Egypt/Tunisia/Libya thing? How many times should I repeat that about half of Arabs aren't pro-Isalmism and pro-Sharia? Have you read ANY of my posts before?

How many times should I repeat that the Sharia CAN'T happen in those countries, and WILL NEVER happen there because it will lead to a major civil war between two equally populated mega groups??
Why do you want to keep the other half living under dictatorship??

In Syria , I can assure you that things won't be different, the Islamists might win some seats, yes, they might win up to 51% if they happen to be well organized but they won't be able to govern as they please (As dictators do) nor in the Sharia way, exactly like in Egypt and Tunisia.

Just look at the Turkey for example, despite Erdogan's major economical achievements but just because h had been showing a tiny bit of his radical Islamist face recently; masses erupted in protest against him.

You are REFUSING to get this point at all.


What you're saying that just because of something that might happen after Assad's fall (Islamism/chaos) then the world should turn a blind eye to the massacres of civilians and children committed by Assad's troops/thugs

Sorry, but after seeing dozens of leaked massacre pictures, and after seeing the Syrian kids and women all working en mass as beggars in the streets of Beirut, I can tell you that this 'man':


Image

is not less brutal than this 'man':


Image
No matter how much you try to picture him as better than Isalmists.



Funny, they both look like innocent calm teddy bears, typical psycho mass murderers.



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04 Jun 2013, 3:54 pm

If it's just 1 in 2 Arabs that support Islamism/Sharia/etc then that's pretty bad odds. I get your point fine tho, not all of the rebels believe what that Jihadis do but that doesn't change the fact that a healthy portion do. Islamists and general chaos are not problems that might happen if Assad falls, it will happen. That's just reality, the question is to what extent. There are thousands and thousands of foreign fighters in Syria right now and I don't think they'll just go home, they never do.

I don't think the world should turn a blind eye to Syria, they obvious aren't considering the meddling already going on there. The world should work towards a peaceful solution not more bloodshed. America has been enough wars and they do not make us safer or any better off.



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04 Jun 2013, 4:03 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Just look at the Turkey for example, despite Erdogan's major economical achievements but just because h had been showing a tiny bit of his radical Islamist face recently; masses erupted in protest against him.


If that's 'a bit', that's way too much for me.

Frankly, if they wanted a new flag without the symbols of darkness on it I would have every sympathy with them.

(Their beer is absolutely awful, though. No excuse for that.)