Socialism

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People can be bought. This is the weakness. I can dangle a $20 bill infront of someone and watch them dance for it like a moron. It only costs them their dignity but they got their $20.



This doesn't mean that this society is perfect nor does it negate the fact that a more "evolved" human being, as Mordy said, would continue to use it. It was merely a stage in societies evolution.

I don't consider that a weakness. In fact, really, I think that dancing like a moron might even be the wise choice given all of the uses for $20. It really depends on how much value is put on dignity and how much on money. Really though, I know that among friends that would really be a very large amount for doing a "stupid" thing. That is a large wage for so little work.

I never stated that this society is perfect, however, the rejection comes in with the level of change that would arise from a more "evolved" human being. I think that a more "evolved" human being will use a society that will still bear much in common with this society or that of contemporary societies. I don't think that full socialism will ever arise.

Maybe my example was too specific but in the wrong sense. Perhaps if you have an existing value, one you preach to others as "a good one" we can use that. Lets take this value, yourself, and 50$. Now, for me to give you this 50$, I want you to go against your own value. NOW, many people will go against their own personal values if a shiney penny is dangled infront of them. What do you consider that? Beneficial? You gain "50" dollars but you are now a 'liar' for going against your own belief and a 'hypocrite.' But, having heard your arguments previously, you are very into "wealth" and "material possession" and expect you to not fully understand the importance of tossing away your values for a dollar.

This is also refered to as "selling out" and, while you may get rich off of it, its about the dirtiest way to do it AND the easiest AND you're helping society maintain its current "problems." I've more respect for someone that stands up and plays their music for expression over a paycheck (quality will be better, as well).



Depends, depends what people want. If they believe in progressing society, there focus should be on that. Me? I dont know what we'd progress into so I'm more focused on developing the human mind/body which is "free of charge."

Technically one of my values is pragmatism, and pragmatism demands taking into account the final results of actions as a measure of success and does not stress any hard and fast moral rule over what works. Now, let me just look at the whole money for credibility argument. Here is what I see: if I lie now then I get a dollar now but I lose credibility which will decrease dollars gained in the long run, therefore if I seek long run success I should then not take the dollar and instead push forward as I have been doing.

Honestly, I really don't care. I care about accuracy and quality, if I have an inaccurate or a low-quality source then they will not get my support otherwise they will.


I don't think it depends, I view the issue of socialism vs capitalism to also be intertwined with the issue of individuality, with capitalism allowing it and socialism repressing it. You don't understand the entirety of the system and the progress it brings and of the importance of existing structures to bring it. Given the types of structures needed to put in place the socialist system and the kinds of sacrifices and losses without recompensation that would have to be taken, I don't think that socialism is a viable system to have in the background of progress, or freedom. Considering that I do not think a system can be great if it requires a man to sacrifice his freedom(or long-lasting for that matter), and that a system that seeks to eliminate progress is a pipe-dream, I don't think that socialism has any practicality as any form of goal. As well, your own mental development is not "free of charge" in as much as you trade off other goods for that, it may have no direct monetary cost but just the same you trade away potential goods for that action.

So the end justifies the means? I wouldnt' call myself a pragmatist, but I understand where you are coming from. I would call myself a rationalist. But I see what Corvus is getting at, and I agree with him, although each situation is highly subjective. I personally wouldn't dance around for $50 right now, but if I were desperate and needed the money, I might. At the same time, though, is it exactly a humane, just action to require someone to lose dignity in order to get charity?

Or let's raise the stakes. Let's say there is a government official who knows that a vote will end up hurting the country later on, but the lobbyists are just always in his face, and they finally find his price. The government official has sold out for money, for a short-term gain based on weak character and greed.



Yes, the implict and explicit opportunity costs of education---or developing your mind. You have to trade time you would spend doing something else for the time you spend developing your mind.

Well, I mean, I don't belong to the philosophical school of pragmatism, but yeah, I am consequentialist and cynically pragmatic. I would dance around right now for $50, that is a lot of money and if the dance is not too long or hard it would be a done deal. Humane? Just? Unless that money was assigned for the purpose of charity and the actor carrying out that disobeyed a rule then there is no problem.
That does happen. That will perhaps always happen. Instead of money one can replace personal favors if we argue an absence of money, such as found in blackmail, or as happens in pork barreling, or even the benefits of a corrupt scheme, or even prostitutes. Money is a medium of exchange.
He means meditation, not education.

Alright, alright. I used "humane" and "just" wrong. I was kind of approaching the situation from the absolute power angle...the person with $50 knows that the person he is offering it to is desperate and will do anything for it, so the person with the money uses that to his advantage.

[quote"Awesomelyglorious"] That does happen. That will perhaps always happen. Instead of money one can replace personal favors if we argue an absence of money, such as found in blackmail, or as happens in pork barreling, or even the benefits of a corrupt scheme, or even prostitutes. Money is a medium of exchange.[/quote]

Well, yeah, and money is the medium of exchange we're using right now in the discussion, so I used it. But yeah, there are definitely multiple ways of exchanging stuff, which is why I think it is important that we limit the power of the government over our lives as much as possible simply because human weakness with always come into play.



Well, it is still the same principle. The time you spend meditating is time you take away from everything else you have to do, but if you value it more than something else, then so be it. That is a very important point--value is entirely subjective and as such ought to be left up to the individual to decide. Socialism negates individual valuation by taking control from the individual and giving it to the state...er, I mean The People.

Ok, so money has influence. I acknowledge that, it really does not influence my views on this, getting $50 for dancing is a lot better than prostitution, violence, or begging in the dignity for money gained angle. People will do incredible things for money, it is rational for them to do so. I think we dealt with issues of poverty earlier though, however, I see human desires to be just that.

That much is obvious. It can be better to deal with market failures than government failures. At least with the latter you consent.

Yeah, I know, I have been arguing that socialism stands against individualism for a while, this includes the fact that it does not work well with subjective evaluation and individuals as the choosers of their destiny, instead looking more at the LTV or at some democracy set above individual freedom. I pretty much was advancing an argument that even though he didn't pay money, his actions still effectively had a cost.

Yes, we've been going around circles for a while now...

Just thank goodness our logic isn't!! But yeah, these things will end up like this. The socialism vs capitalism debate is one of the more intellectual debates to occur, but it is also one that tends to go over the same issues over and over with neither side giving in.

It is weakness when it is at the expense of others, you and I are little more then a barbarian genetically (and for you due to your lack of having lived very long to gain perspective and mature) and your will little more then that of a glorified bacteria. Real rational people would a) kill themselves if they were inferior or getting in the way of the family of humanities survival in terms of efficiency when sick/etc out of concern for the others, if was technologically futile to save them and b) Real rational people would not only be interested in only themselves at the expense of others. Nature is evil that does not mean man has to be, but unfortunately 99.99% of men women and children are unevolved still, they are genetically programmed and designed for a different world.

I recommend you go read some Thorstein Veblen.




What are you talking about? How many jobs have been lost, how many people are killing themselves right now as a byproduct of the stresses of CAPITALISM?? hmm? how many people are becoming depressed? By 2020 the WHO predicts depression in modern capitalist nations will be one of the #1 causes of death and disability. Not barbaric my ass, you are hopelessly delluded, how many wars has capitalist america been in, in the last 100 years? Hmm?? Humanity has not changed one iota, and your belief that capitalism makes man more human is infantile view of capitalism and the culture of greed, consumption, imperialism and corruption it creates.

It's hardly perfect, it works, but just barely, there's always the threat of mass unionization or revolution and big businesses hate that with a passion. The way the world work current is as such:

1) Most powerful Capitalist nations subjugate other nations economically through imperalism (and by war as last resort)
2) They purposely fund political instability, corrupt foreign goernments, and propaganda and create internal strife. if not invade when necessary to make new sources of cheap labour ON PURPOSE to keep the system working.
3) They believe no other system other then capitalism should be accepted or tolerated, when capitalism can only exist by consent or by the threat of state force (i.e. police, military, etc).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PUmMC5P8IE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jp65GhgX ... ed&search=

Veblen promoted the idea that there is no such thing as human nature, and therefore that there is no such thing as natural law. You've probably heard his cute phrase, "conspicuous consumption." He is, if I remember correctly (and correct me if I am wrong as I haven't read him in a while) more of a proponent of culture creating society rather than a universal law. His book is amusing, but I cannot take him seriously when he calls a well manicured lawn "conspicuous consumption." He is interesting, and you ought to read him, but read him with Karl Popper's falsification in mind, and don't take Veblen as gospel. (Not that you would have a tendency to do that, Awesomelyglorious.)




What are you talking about? How many jobs have been lost, how many people are killing themselves right now as a byproduct of the stresses of CAPITALISM?? hmm? how many people are becoming depressed? By 2020 the WHO predicts depression in modern capitalist nations will be one of the #1 causes of death and disability. Not barbaric my ass, you are hopelessly delluded, how many wars has capitalist america been in, in the last 100 years? Hmm?? Humanity has not changed one iota, and your belief that capitalism makes man more human is infantile view of capitalism and the culture of greed, consumption, imperialism and corruption it creates.[/quote]

How many people were killed in the name of Communism? How many people are currently killing themselves in the name of controlled economies? And depression is a chemical inbalance and it is hardly logical to include that as a reason to completely switch an economic system...what, is autism the result of evil capitialists? Cancer? Aids? Bird Flu?

According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 victims, of whom 681,692 were shot - an average of 1,000 executions a day. Historian Michael Ellman claims the best estimate of deaths brought about by Soviet Repression during these two years is the range 950,000 to 1.2 million - i.e. about a million – which includes deaths in detention and those who died shortly after being released from the Gulag as a result of their treatment in it. He also states that this is the estimate which should be used by historians and teachers of Russian history.
Some experts believe the evidence released from the Soviet archives is understated, incomplete or unreliable. For example, Sovietologist Robert Conquest suggests that the probable figure for executions during the years of the Great Purge is not 681,692, but some two and a half times as high. He assumes that the KGB was covering its tracks by falsifying the dates and causes of death of rehabilitated victims.

What the soviets did can happen in america, look at what is happening now in America... remember it's not the system, its the people!! Any system human beings could design can be destroyed by bad men of ill will. History is far from over, its very likely we will not know about many of the hidden tragedies of corporations because of their control of media and resources.

"well manicured lawn "conspicuous consumption." "

Please, a "well manicured" lawn today, wastes a s**t tonne of money and resources for what amounts to nothing. Sure cutting the grass isn't "conspicious" but it sure is when you go overboard. Just think about how much WATER and needless weed poison and chemicals are dumped to make the lawn "look pretty", as opposed to using it for something useful like... you know saving it for important uses or drinking it... Water usage and drinking water is major issue in many parts of the U.S. and yes he was correct, just because he has some silly ideas does not mean ALL his ideas are silly or without merit, you should know better then that. Just like if I make a mistake on a one question in a test, that does not follow rationally that I got all the test questions wrong. People are too quick to dismiss something because the man is simply exploring his thoughts with the limited knowledge of the times.

But overall was still correct in that humans are barbarians and that they are still tribal... what you call "human nature" is nothing more then genetic programming for an ancient world which in the future WILL be modified, so called "human nature" is pretty meaningless:

1) Every new human that is born is born without memory knowledge and experience,
2) Their lives are short, therefore making progress hard and difficult because you keep losing people with the most experience, wisdom and maturity to develop, maintain and evolve society even further.
3) The best men and worst men die... and new best men and worst men are born... but the ratio's of good men to bad men born are random. Next is there is no gaurantee the new men will not make the same blunders as the old men because of their newness to existence.



And how many people suffer immensely and kill themselves when they can't get adequate social assistance or money to support themselves if they are disabled? Yet the walton's daughter can afford a 68 MILLION dollar painting... it's disgusting that any individual or family can possess such wealth when we know the money supply is purposely limited. Capitalism just suffocates people slowly, and I have no doubt that if people tried to radically reform some aspects of capitalism it could spark what happened in russia very easily, The rich, big businesses and some parts of governments are like gangsters in capitalism. They hate the working class and poor with a vengeance, they hate the rising wages, so they do domestic warfare through the media, chocking sections of society through lack of funds and all sorts of nonsense that we don't hear about. Next is the offshoring frenzy totally pillaging jobs in the US because of enormous supply of cheap labour in asia, asia and india are the next possible super powers an the US wants to make sure it controls key strategic resources to curb their means because of their enormous populations that will accelerate their home countries advancement as a function of time, times the work of such an enormous population.

It's called PSYWAR, and domestic warfare. Believe that it exists, there is more then enough evidence for the US and its intelligence agencies and such messing with foreign powers, why would it leave its own citizens alone? In the end it's all about money and power and maintaining that power while managing the "worker farm". It's just done much more expertly in our societies.

The funny thing about water is that it finds its way back into the ecosystem, and dumping water on the lawn probably adds more water back into the environment than drinking it does. (I am not a scientist, so I can't tell you for sure, but it probably does.)

And you're right; you don't discount an idea entirely simply because one thing does not make sense, but you do discount ideas if they fail to mesh with what you hold to be true.



If it is "genetic programming," isn't that a pretty good argument that its inherent to every human being? I do not think men are barbarians. If so, they are pretty civilized, I'd say.




This is subjective. How do you know this? You are making a judgement without any possible means of proving it false or correct.



Yeah, but we are still making progress. People read what others have done and go from there.



What does this have to do with anything? And it doesn't make sense to me---of course everyone dies and of course new people are born, and I believe the point of reading history (or the stories of men who have lived before) is to learn from past mistakes...or be doomed to repeat them.



Why do you focus on conspiracies? Why do you focus on class envy? Why are you so quick to assume you are powerless, that everything you do or read is controlled by Corporations? Start your own business if you hate working for someone else so much. Why do you say business owners hate their employees? I don't understand what you mean by the money supply being limited. Also, if the US is so keen on controlling Asia, why is it letting China buy up all sorts of domestic bonds?

Except that most action is not really at the expense of others as externalities are generally not that extreme. As well, your opinion on my "evolution" really doesn't matter to me. People do kill themselves in that circumstance. Rational people are interested in those they are concerned about, this often does include family welfare. Evil is a meaningless word, it just means it does not conform with your ideals.
I am not a big fan of the institutionalist school of economics. Reading J K Galbraith was far enough for me for most things.


The unemployment rate is about 4-5% where I live. Obviously the job loss rate isn't as high as advertised considering that unemployment is low. As well, the number of people killing themselves due to capitalism is lower than the number benefiting, not only that not all of the suicide rate can ever be attributed to that cause, it can be noted that instability in capitalism relative to feudalism will cause some troubles in human experience, however, that does not mean that feudalism is better. Really though, if one merely looks at the material wealth available to even the poor one can see that things are better. McDonalds offers better food than found in past societies, tastier too! Starvation has decreased significantly, instead of seeing starvation in countries we now worry more about obesity.
It is not perfect. It is not barely functioning as you mention, it is currently quite stable. In fact, there is less worry about unionization now than ever and still the system has not collapsed.
So, that is why we have allowed modern countries to improve such as South Korea, China, India, and to a great extent large parts of South America and others? A lot of what you reference is just imperialism which was practiced by all major powers in the time frame you mentioned in that youtube, as nationalism was the driving force behind a lot of this.
So you are saying that millions are secretly dying in America and nobody knows about them? Not even the anti-corporate muckrakers that exist today? That is a massive and wild conspiracy without any proof.

The only thing is that a well-manicured lawn today is a use in and of itself. It is not waste, people get pleasure from their maintained lawns. I would not go so far as to say it is better for the water cycle though.
Human nature is not meaningless because it does exist and it is not likely to change or be changed.
Ok, a list?
The money supply is limited? Do you mean that we don't have rampant inflation?? The money supply by nature must not be limitless. What Russian problem do you speak of? There have been many throughout history. Yes, that is why rich men such as Warren Buffett and Bill Gates have started giving massive donations to help the poor of the world, it is out of their sheer blind hatred of those individuals. The offshore frenzy is actually a good thing, most economists today say that it is a good thing, in fact, given that our unemployment rate is relatively low it would appear that it is not a permanent job loss, not only that but the cheaper goods are a boon to society. Did you mean china and india? India is a part of asia. Not only that but we do not have perfect control over either so I don't think it is exactly what you speak of.
Ok, wow, um..... yeah.... I am not really that driven by conspiracy theories and that is what you essentially offer.

Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 04 Feb 2007, 2:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.