i am legitimately scared about trump becoming president

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LKL
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20 Jan 2016, 7:22 pm

If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.



Jacoby
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20 Jan 2016, 7:28 pm

People without first hand experience with guns should not talk about guns, jmo, typically the only things they know are what they hear in the media and see in movies/tv which is so far from reality it isn't even funny. Trust the people that know what they're talking about, the 2nd amendment is clear that it is not to be infringed and there is no interpretation needed.

It's not a serious issue, there is no room for compromise. All you will ever get from us is a firm NO, if you don't like that then move to another country or find enough like-minded people in your state to secede.



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20 Jan 2016, 8:48 pm

I'll be patient but I'm not going back to the beginning of this row.

Sweetleaf wrote:
I said I don't know all the terminology that well, and I never suggested they should ban semi autos, if the military grade high power weapons or whatever aren't available to civilians in the first place then I suppose I am not sure what guns exactly people are calling to have banned...if the military grade ones civilians have no buisiness with are already not available.

You'd have to be more specific about what you mean by high powered weapons.
Assault rifles: By no means high powered. Though certainly deadly, they fire rounds better suited to coyote hunting than people. They fire either semi-auto, 3 round burst, or full auto, depending on the model.
The AR-15's and AK-47/AK-74's available to civilians are not assault rifles since they are semi-auto only. They fire only one shot per pull of the trigger.
ANYTHING capable of firing full auto or 3-round burst (really, anything more than one round per pull of the trigger) have been heavily regulate since 1934 and more regulation added to it in 1986.

Weapons larger than that would be crew served weapons.
A crew-served weapon is any weapon system that requires a crew of more than one individual, as opposed to an individual service weapon, to function at optimum efficiency due to its operational complexity, such as requiring one person to load while another fires. The weight and bulk of the system often also necessitates multiple personnel for transportation.
Those would be medium and heavy machineguns or destructive devices, also regulated the same or similar to full auto weapons described above.

In a nutshell, the term "military grade high power weapons" is too ambiguous to be used.


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Raptor
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20 Jan 2016, 8:52 pm

LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.


And how do we go about doing that?
Felons and insane folk are already barred by law.
Terrorists will be terrorist and it's hard to weed them out since they usually don't go around with signs on them saying "I'M A TERRORIST"


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LKL
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22 Jan 2016, 2:07 pm

Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.


And how do we go about doing that?
Felons and insane folk are already barred by law.
Terrorists will be terrorist and it's hard to weed them out since they usually don't go around with signs on them saying "I'M A TERRORIST"

Making background checks universal and increasing punishments for straw-buyers would be a start.

Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.



Lukeda420
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22 Jan 2016, 2:27 pm

LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.


And how do we go about doing that?
Felons and insane folk are already barred by law.
Terrorists will be terrorist and it's hard to weed them out since they usually don't go around with signs on them saying "I'M A TERRORIST"

Making background checks universal and increasing punishments for straw-buyers would be a start.

Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.


Hey Raptor, what do you think this country should do about our gun laws?



Raptor
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22 Jan 2016, 2:43 pm

LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.


And how do we go about doing that?
Felons and insane folk are already barred by law.
Terrorists will be terrorist and it's hard to weed them out since they usually don't go around with signs on them saying "I'M A TERRORIST"

Making background checks universal and increasing punishments for straw-buyers would be a start.

They are universal for dealers and have been. There is no "gun show loophole" where the transfer process is waived. The only people that don't have to abide are peer to peer sales between individuals and that is a minority of transfers compared to dealer transfers. I'd hate to see the day when someone goes to prison for selling an old single shot .22 rifle at a garage sale without a background check and whatever. Trust me, that's just what will happen since justice is often enough blind. The ATF has been known to f**k people over the most trivial things.

Besides, background checks are more of a feelgood measure than anything. It only tells what's on record for the person being checked. Not all lunatics or psychopaths are diagnosed and on record where NICS would have visibility into.

Quote:
Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.
The law should apply to the act, not the tool.
Do we blame forks and spoons for obesity?


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Raptor
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22 Jan 2016, 2:47 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.


And how do we go about doing that?
Felons and insane folk are already barred by law.
Terrorists will be terrorist and it's hard to weed them out since they usually don't go around with signs on them saying "I'M A TERRORIST"

Making background checks universal and increasing punishments for straw-buyers would be a start.

Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.


Hey Raptor, what do you think this country should do about our gun laws?


The fewer of them the better.


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Lukeda420
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22 Jan 2016, 2:48 pm

Raptor wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.


And how do we go about doing that?
Felons and insane folk are already barred by law.
Terrorists will be terrorist and it's hard to weed them out since they usually don't go around with signs on them saying "I'M A TERRORIST"

Making background checks universal and increasing punishments for straw-buyers would be a start.

Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.


Hey Raptor, what do you think this country should do about our gun laws?


The fewer of them the better.


Can you elaborate?



sly279
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22 Jan 2016, 2:50 pm

LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.

I'm not insane, yet me and many other aspies are going lose their rights and be treated the same.



sly279
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22 Jan 2016, 2:56 pm

Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.


And how do we go about doing that?
Felons and insane folk are already barred by law.
Terrorists will be terrorist and it's hard to weed them out since they usually don't go around with signs on them saying "I'M A TERRORIST"

Making background checks universal and increasing punishments for straw-buyers would be a start.

They are universal for dealers and have been. There is no "gun show loophole" where the transfer process is waived. The only people that don't have to abide are peer to peer sales between individuals and that is a minority of transfers compared to dealer transfers. I'd hate to see the day when someone goes to prison for selling an old single shot .22 rifle at a garage sale without a background check and whatever. Trust me, that's just what will happen since justice is often enough blind. The ATF has been known to f**k people over the most trivial things.

Besides, background checks are more of a feelgood measure than anything. It only tells what's on record for the person being checked. Not all lunatics or psychopaths are diagnosed and on record where NICS would have visibility into.

Quote:
Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.
The law should apply to the act, not the tool.
Do we blame forks and spoons for obesity?


Indeed like sending so one to jail for 20 years because their gun malfunctioned and fired full auto. Free floating firing pins like ar15 and sks if get gunky in the channel will get stuck forward and slam fire. Sure you know this raptor just explains for the others. There's other reasons too, parts break. Rather then being told to get it fixed like what happens with a car. You'll charged with possession of a unregistered machine gun.



Raptor
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22 Jan 2016, 3:01 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.


And how do we go about doing that?
Felons and insane folk are already barred by law.
Terrorists will be terrorist and it's hard to weed them out since they usually don't go around with signs on them saying "I'M A TERRORIST"

Making background checks universal and increasing punishments for straw-buyers would be a start.

Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.


Hey Raptor, what do you think this country should do about our gun laws?


The fewer of them the better.


Can you elaborate?


It's been elaborated to death many times over the years.
Just copy and past gunz-r-bad to the search window in the upper right corner since I have installed that in most all of the threads dealing with this subject in order to mock the antis and provide a consistent searchword for future research.


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Lukeda420
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22 Jan 2016, 3:08 pm

Raptor wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.


And how do we go about doing that?
Felons and insane folk are already barred by law.
Terrorists will be terrorist and it's hard to weed them out since they usually don't go around with signs on them saying "I'M A TERRORIST"

Making background checks universal and increasing punishments for straw-buyers would be a start.

Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.


Hey Raptor, what do you think this country should do about our gun laws?


The fewer of them the better.


Can you elaborate?


It's been elaborated to death many times over the years.
Just copy and past gunz-r-bad to the search window in the upper right corner since I have installed that in most all of the threads dealing with this subject in order to mock the antis and provide a consistent searchword for future research.


I hear from you on what you are opposed to, I haven't heard you elaborate on what you want to happen.



LKL
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22 Jan 2016, 8:19 pm

Raptor wrote:
They are universal for dealers and have been.

they're universal for dealers who sell a certain volume.
Quote:
There is no "gun show loophole" where the transfer process is waived
.
Dealers, above a certain volume, still have to conduct background checks. Dealers who don't sell many guns, and private sellers, do not have to conduct background checks. That is not a 'universal' requirement.
Quote:
I'd hate to see the day when someone goes to prison for selling an old single shot .22 rifle at a garage sale without a background check and whatever.

Speak for yourself. We have to do paperwork and officially transfer auto titles, have the car smogged to make sure it's safe, etc; I'd like to see the same level of formality applied to all gun transfers.
Quote:
Besides, background checks are more of a feelgood measure than anything. It only tells what's on record for the person being checked. Not all lunatics or psychopaths are diagnosed and on record where NICS would have visibility into.

Not all lunatics and psychopaths, true, but any a**hole who's been convicted for stalking his ex or beating the s**t out of his wife will have a slightly harder time buying a gun. A convicted rapist will have a harder time getting a gun than, say, the housewife down the street.

Quote:
Quote:
Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.
The law should apply to the act, not the tool.
Do we blame forks and spoons for obesity?

No, we blame the food industry and the people who eat and drink too much. Therefore, we put regulations on the food industry, and at least for alcohol bartenders are supposed to stop selling once a person hits a limit.

Let's talk about the people, though. What I hear you saying is that you think that a convicted rapist should be able to get a gun with no more trouble than I could. Personally, I think that's a deranged point of view.



Raptor
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22 Jan 2016, 8:56 pm

LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
They are universal for dealers and have been.

they're universal for dealers who sell a certain volume.
Quote:
There is no "gun show loophole" where the transfer process is waived
.
Dealers, above a certain volume, still have to conduct background checks. Dealers who don't sell many guns, and private sellers, do not have to conduct background checks. That is not a 'universal' requirement.

Nothing in this about volume

“Background Checks You must conduct a National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) check or appropriate State background check for each and every sale or other transfer of a firearm to a non-licensee. The NICS or State background check ensures that any person who purchases a firearm from you may lawfully possess firearms. A NICS or State background check MUST be conducted before:
1. The sale or trade of a firearm;
2. The return of a consigned firearm;
3. The redemption of a pawned firearm;
4. The loan or rental of a firearm for use off of your licensed premises; or
5. Any other non-exempt transfer of a firearm. Failure to conduct a background check has a significant impact on public safety. You could be fined, have your license suspended or revoked, or be prosecuted.”

https://www.atf.gov/file/58676/download

LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
I'd hate to see the day when someone goes to prison for selling an old single shot .22 rifle at a garage sale without a background check and whatever.

Speak for yourself. We have to do paperwork and officially transfer auto titles, have the car smogged to make sure it's safe, etc; I'd like to see the same level of formality applied to all gun transfers.

I don't suppose you'd be capable of distinguishing between a constitutional right and a licensed privilege
No, I 'spose not... :roll:

LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Besides, background checks are more of a feelgood measure than anything. It only tells what's on record for the person being checked. Not all lunatics or psychopaths are diagnosed and on record where NICS would have visibility into.

Not all lunatics and psychopaths, true, but any as*hole who's been convicted for stalking his ex or beating the s**t out of his wife will have a slightly harder time buying a gun. A convicted rapist will have a harder time getting a gun than, say, the housewife down the street.

Yeah, now he can buy a ball peen hammer and stove her skull in.
But your right; gunz were meant to kill so someone dying by the ball peen hammer method isn't as dead...I guess.

LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.
The law should apply to the act, not the tool.
Do we blame forks and spoons for obesity?

No, we blame the food industry and the people who eat and drink too much.

But you just can't bring yourself apply that to guns since guns are so icky.

Quote:
Therefore, we put regulations on the food industry,

Yeah, our wonderful FDA.
:roll:

Quote:
and at least for alcohol bartenders are supposed to stop selling once a person hits a limit.

Which enumerated right covers the right to get loaded?
Take your time.

Quote:
Let's talk about the people, though.

Oh, now your want to talk about people?
How can they be blamed when the guns take over their minds or whatever

Quote:
What I hear you saying is that you think that a convicted rapist should be able to get a gun with no more trouble than I could. Personally, I think that's a deranged point of view.

Yes, I have a gun van (like an ice cream van but I vend guns) that I drive around and sell my wares at hot spots like courthouses and places where demonstrations or labor union strikes are going on. Everything from inexpensive small caliber handguns to decked out AR-15's.
Yes, I have something to fit every budget here at Raptor's Gunz-on-wheels.

BTW, I give a 10% discount to rapists.[/quote]


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Raptor
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22 Jan 2016, 9:20 pm

sly279 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
Raptor wrote:
LKL wrote:
If it's the people that are the problem and not the guns, then we seriously need to stop letting the wrong sort of people (felons; terrorists; insane folks...) get guns.


And how do we go about doing that?
Felons and insane folk are already barred by law.
Terrorists will be terrorist and it's hard to weed them out since they usually don't go around with signs on them saying "I'M A TERRORIST"

Making background checks universal and increasing punishments for straw-buyers would be a start.

They are universal for dealers and have been. There is no "gun show loophole" where the transfer process is waived. The only people that don't have to abide are peer to peer sales between individuals and that is a minority of transfers compared to dealer transfers. I'd hate to see the day when someone goes to prison for selling an old single shot .22 rifle at a garage sale without a background check and whatever. Trust me, that's just what will happen since justice is often enough blind. The ATF has been known to f**k people over the most trivial things.

Besides, background checks are more of a feelgood measure than anything. It only tells what's on record for the person being checked. Not all lunatics or psychopaths are diagnosed and on record where NICS would have visibility into.

Quote:
Throwing up your hands and saying, 'criminals won't obey laws, so why have laws?! Oh, well!' is not the answer.
The law should apply to the act, not the tool.
Do we blame forks and spoons for obesity?


Indeed like sending so one to jail for 20 years because their gun malfunctioned and fired full auto. Free floating firing pins like ar15 and sks if get gunky in the channel will get stuck forward and slam fire. Sure you know this raptor just explains for the others. There's other reasons too, parts break. Rather then being told to get it fixed like what happens with a car. You'll charged with possession of a unregistered machine gun.


I've seen that happen before. Someone brought his SKS to a range where I was shooting and it went full auto on the first round and dumped the whole mag. Even if it only doubled one time, technically he could be arrested and charged with unlawful possession of a "machine gun" even though it was unintentional.


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