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Jakki
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18 Dec 2020, 6:45 pm

Freedom to punch someone in the nose is physical assault and is significantly different than verbal abuse .
But there still needs to be reasonable consequences for ones own actions . 8O . I feel .

Benito Musselini s. Government was considered Left wing fascist. I have read ,What has changed , the words , the ideas.? The degree to which one applies these ideas ?


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Bradleigh
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18 Dec 2020, 6:48 pm

Pepe wrote:
Bull. [snort]!
Australia is a rather secular society, especially compared to America.
The churches are empty, and not because of the coronavirus.
We will have to agree to disagree. ;)


Just because religion is less of a thing here does not mean it has no effect. I am not even saying all religion is bad, my family is Catholic and are all accepting, and one of my old bosses was some form of Christian and very accepting. But there is still plenty of bigotry in Australia, you would have to be a bit privileged to think that there is none.

Had a moment I think earlier this year where I had to call her out for making a racist post on Facebook about a Muslim lady, saying something about her "going back where she came from" when there was minimal information of what possible immigration status would be. I pointed out that she would not have made the comment if person was white, that it was racist, and she practically lost her mind in saying she was not that kind of person, that she was not a racist. But being titled a racist is less important than maybe holding a belief that is so.

My mother is generally a very accepting person, she doesn't generally discriminate. But it is kind of scary how over time she has gone from understanding that Pauline Hanson was an awful racist who wanted to stir up trouble towards Asian people, into maybe having some good points, and there are some bad Muslim people that are a specific problem. I suspect it is some amount of Facebook that these sorts of things are shared between Minion memes.


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kraftiekortie
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18 Dec 2020, 7:43 pm

I hope I am not misunderstood.

If somebody calls somebody the "N-word" and that somebody punches the other somebody in the face, it's assault and battery (depending on the state).

All I'm saying is that people should just use common sense, and just not call someone the "N-word." If you do, you're asking for trouble.

People who "push the envelope," as far as I'm concerned, are only asking for trouble.



funeralxempire
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18 Dec 2020, 7:45 pm

Jakki wrote:
Benito Musselini s. Government was considered Left wing fascist. I have read ,What has changed , the words , the ideas.? The degree to which one applies these ideas ?


By who exactly? :?
The Axis powers were united in their opposition to 'leftists'.


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kraftiekortie
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18 Dec 2020, 7:48 pm

Mussolini was a right-wing Fascist----pure and simple. He's the guy who CREATED Fascism.

Many left-wing, especially Communist, leaders use fascistic methods in the midst of their rule.



Jakki
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18 Dec 2020, 8:58 pm

Google inquired results are as follows : : Seen as a spectrum or continuum of ideologies, socialism/communism traditionally falls on the far left end of this scale, nationalism/fascism on the far right.

Just a brief search on Google ... but I apparently did not research my post very well .
Apologies as necessary .


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Deltaville
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18 Dec 2020, 9:29 pm

@Kraftiekortie and funeralxempire,

Your points are my thoughts as well.

I am utterly baffled that anyone would group Nazism and Fascism under a leftwing banner.


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Mikah
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18 Dec 2020, 10:44 pm

Deltaville wrote:
I am utterly baffled that anyone would group Nazism and Fascism under a leftwing banner.


It's far from crazy. I've posted this before:

Travellers in the Third Reich, Julia Boyd wrote:
In October 1935 the Swiss literary and cultural philosopher Denis de Rougemont took up a post at Frankfurt University teaching literature. His academic friends in Paris were astonished but, as he explained, he believed that it was important to study Hitler in his own setting through the eyes of both his followers and his victims. Possessing a cooler head than Thomas Wolfe, de Rougemont set about dissecting Hitler's Germany with admirable objectivity. The result is a forensic examination of how the regime affected ordinary people in their daily lives, meticulously catalogued in Journal d'Allemagne. Wanting to be sure that his observations would stand the test of time, de Rougemont waited two years before publishing his journal in 1938.
Although he arrived in Germany convinced that 'Hitlerism' was a right-wing movement, the more he talked to people from different backgrounds, the more confused he became. After a few weeks in Frankfurt, he found himself wondering, 'le régime est-il de gauche ou de droit? [Is the regime on the left or the right?].
What unsettled him was the fact that those who stood most naturally on the right - lawyers, doctors, industrialists and so on - were the very ones who most bitterly denounced National Socialism. Far from being a bulwark against communism, they complained it was communism in disguise. They pointed out that only workers and peasants benefited from Nazi reforms, while their own values were being systematically destroyed by devious methods, They were taxed disproportionately, their family life had been irreparably harmed, parental authority sapped, religion stripped and education eliminated.
De Rougemont, a federalist who had little time for totalitarianism of any colour, was unimpressed by these cries of woe. He blamed the middle classes for not having faced up to the social problems during the Weimar period. Now they were equally supine in the face of Hitler's excesses.

...

De Rougemont was not alone in questioning the distinction between National Socialism and communism. Many foreigners wondered how it was possible that two such violently opposed political movements could share so much common ground. Kay Smith, who prided herself on calling a spade a space, listened intently to a lengthy exposition on National Socialist theory before asking, 'But Rochus, what then is the difference between National Socialism and Communism? The German threw up his hands in horror. "Psst Katie, das darf man nicht sagen [Hush, one must not say that.]"' Seventeen-year-old Joan Wakefield (whose family motto was 'Be Just and Fear Not') was even bolder. Fresh out of an English boarding school, she was studying German at Berlin University. Sitting one afternoon in a crowded hall listening to a lengthy Nazi harangue, she rose to her feet and with her very English accent asked the speaker if he would be so good as to explain to her the difference between National Socialism and communism. There was a shocked silence. When, with some pride, Joan later recounted this episode to her landlady, the Baronin turned white, terrified that her young lodger's faux pas might rebound on her. In a letter to her sister Debo several years later, Nancy Mitford wrote, 'Actually I have always said that there wasn't a pin to put between Bolshies & Nazis except that the latter, being better organised, are probably more dangerous.'
This then was a question often raised by foreigners but, as de Rougemont discovered, one that rarely received a satisfactory response. A former militant communist offered him partial insight when he explained why, at the age of fifty, he had decided to swap sides:

We want work and our cup of café au lait in the morning ... that is enough. Politics don't interest the workers when they have food and work. Hitler? Now that he has won, he has only to implement his programme. It was almost the same as ours! But he has been more cunning, he reassured the bourgeois by not immediately attacking religion .. I will tell you one thing: If they abandon him, all these fat pigs who are around him .. I will go and fight for him! He at least is a sincere man; he is the only one.

As for where exactly National Socialism stood on the political spectrum, de Rougemont concluded that, although the regime was a good deal further to the left than had been appreciated in France, it was much less so than the German bourgeoisie tried to make out.


The further back you go, the more common this viewpoint is, prior to decades of certain folks wanting to minimise the atrocities of the Soviet Union and associate their political enemies or the slightest whiff of nationalism with Nazis.


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funeralxempire
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18 Dec 2020, 11:06 pm

Mikah wrote:
Travellers in the Third Reich, Julia Boyd wrote:
As for where exactly National Socialism stood on the political spectrum, de Rougemont concluded that, although the regime was a good deal further to the left than had been appreciated in France, it was much less so than the German bourgeoisie tried to make out.


The further back you go, the more common this viewpoint is, prior to decades of certain folks wanting to minimise the atrocities of the Soviet Union and associate their political enemies or the slightest whiff of nationalism with Nazis.


It sounds like de Rougemont is suggesting that it was more of a radical centrist regime in practice, which isn't entirely unfair. It wouldn't have taken especially radical social safety net policies to be viewed as 'a good deal further to the left' than might be expected. Some of those policies still sound relatively generous.


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Deltaville
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18 Dec 2020, 11:08 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Travellers in the Third Reich, Julia Boyd wrote:
As for where exactly National Socialism stood on the political spectrum, de Rougemont concluded that, although the regime was a good deal further to the left than had been appreciated in France, it was much less so than the German bourgeoisie tried to make out.


The further back you go, the more common this viewpoint is, prior to decades of certain folks wanting to minimise the atrocities of the Soviet Union and associate their political enemies or the slightest whiff of nationalism with Nazis.


It sounds like de Rougemont is suggesting that it was more of a radical centrist regime in practice, which isn't entirely unfair. It wouldn't have taken especially radical social safety net policies to be viewed as 'a good deal further to the left' than might be expected. Some of those policies still sound relatively generous.


Agreed.

@Mikah,

No rational scholar would classify Nazism as containing any real traits of containing a left wing ideology, save maybe for the welfare cheque (which actually has its roots in 19th century Germany).


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Mikah
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18 Dec 2020, 11:51 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
It sounds like de Rougemont is suggesting that it was more of a radical centrist regime in practice, which isn't entirely unfair. It wouldn't have taken especially radical social safety net policies to be viewed as 'a good deal further to the left' than might be expected. Some of those policies still sound relatively generous.


I think a simplistic, but not totally useless way of looking at it is as follows: One ideology claims to be universal, that is - it should apply to all humans, in theory, if not practice. The other is embarrassingly similar, taking many of the ideas, rhetoric, tools and blueprints of the other, but gives its sole attention to the needs and organisation of one group in particular, everyone else be damned. Even the communists saw the parallels. "Der Antisemitismus ist der Sozialismus der dummen Kerle"

Deltaville wrote:
No rational scholar would classify Nazism as containing any real traits of containing a left wing ideology



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Redd_Kross
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19 Dec 2020, 12:42 am

Mikah - Yes, it's easy to get "popularism" mixed up with left-wing ideals, but popularism can be found on both the extreme left and extreme right. The Nazis took advantage of this to weaken the left wing in Germany, clouding the waters deliberately, hence the adoption of the "National Socialist" name. 1938 would have been a prime time to witness that in full flow, before the inevitable plot twist.

Communism aims to serve the masses by making everybody equal. That is achieved by stripping away difference - principally in terms of wealth (though in practice, as Orwell noted, "some are more equal than others"). So if you were a good boy and bowed to the new leaders, shopped your neighbours to the NKVD for minor indiscretions, and were prepared to fight for the good of the Party, you might do well within the system. The main problem with this, as many Soviets discovered, is that "equal" doesn't necessarily mean "equally good", and indeed "doing well" also made any individual more of a political target. Initially the old elite were particularly hard hit (especially if they were Jewish) but their wealth and power mainly shifted sideways, rather than downwards. So lots of people ended up in the same communist boat, but it wasn't a good boat. Cold, leaky, badly stocked with provisions, and infested with rats.... And political opponents of the regime would be hunted down, once in a while. But at least it was a big country where the shrewd could sometimes survive.

Back in 1930s Germany, though, Socialism was a mixed bag, with communists, socialists and social democrats / liberals. The Nazi aim was to steal their crowd base while simultaneously marginalising the more liberal elements by lumping them in with the extreme left and then writing them off as extremists. That worked amazingly well, despite the now-obvious double standards involved.

Popularism in Nazi Germany was also about getting people stirred up about alleged unfairness, in order to grab power. So far, so similar. And yes there were some sweeteners for ordinary people at the start, as well as lots of rhetoric about future glory. The difference was, the resulting regime championed aggressive competition, discrimination and blame culture, rather than "levelling the field" (to pretty much zero) for ordinary people. So if you were a good boy and bowed to the new leaders, shopped your neighbours to the Gestapo for minor indiscretions and were prepared to fight for the good of the Party, you might do well. But possibly not for long, given the rampant back-stabbing, unstable leadership and very rapid change. Initially the old elite were particularly hard hit (especially if they were Jewish) but their wealth and power mainly shifted sideways, rather than downwards. Over time different political and then social minority groups came under fire for any lack of political / economic success. Being a smaller nation it was much harder to keep one's head down and avoid politics completely, too. Extreme, dog-eat-dog "divide and conquer" on a street by street basis, essentially.

The differences between the two totalitarian regimes are mainly down to the words and the tools used. Soviet culture theoretically made it difficult to pick on minorities - because everybody was supposedly the same - but they managed pretty well nonetheless. With Nazism, the drive to encourage fear, desperation and in-fighting was more obvious, though it was wrapped up in nationalistic / jingoistic terminology. Both cultures believed very strongly in sacrificing free will for the greater good of the nation, but it was dressed up in different ways.

As far as ordinary people were concerned, the consequences were very similar in both cultures, except I think the Soviet system was geared more towards repetitive drudgery and malicious compliance, whereas for most Germans it was a fearfully accelerating game of snakes and ladders. At least until the Eastern Front, which ironically levelled those odds by combining the worst of everything, for everyone.

This is why I don't trust extremists on either side of the political debate. The language and the tools are very different, the outcomes terribly similar. Ordinary people are disposable either way. And anyone who thinks the extreme right is the antidote to the extreme left (or vice versa) is a fool, as they're both of the same ilk.



Pepe
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19 Dec 2020, 4:20 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I hope I am not misunderstood.

If somebody calls somebody the "N-word" and that somebody punches the other somebody in the face, it's assault and battery (depending on the state).

All I'm saying is that people should just use common sense, and just not call someone the "N-word." If you do, you're asking for trouble.

People who "push the envelope," as far as I'm concerned, are only asking for trouble.


You are asking for trouble from people who can't control their emotions. 8)



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19 Dec 2020, 4:21 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Mussolini was a right-wing Fascist----pure and simple. He's the guy who CREATED Fascism.

Many left-wing, especially Communist, leaders use fascistic methods in the midst of their rule.


He was fascist before hitler.



Pepe
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19 Dec 2020, 4:30 am

Mikah wrote:
Deltaville wrote:
I am utterly baffled that anyone would group Nazism and Fascism under a leftwing banner.


It's far from crazy. I've posted this before:

Travellers in the Third Reich, Julia Boyd wrote:
In October 1935 the Swiss literary and cultural philosopher Denis de Rougemont took up a post at Frankfurt University teaching literature. His academic friends in Paris were astonished but, as he explained, he believed that it was important to study Hitler in his own setting through the eyes of both his followers and his victims. Possessing a cooler head than Thomas Wolfe, de Rougemont set about dissecting Hitler's Germany with admirable objectivity.


Most people are incapable of being objective/rational with subjects like this.
Most people are slaves to their emotions.
I am not "most people". 8)



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19 Dec 2020, 4:33 am

Deltaville wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Travellers in the Third Reich, Julia Boyd wrote:
As for where exactly National Socialism stood on the political spectrum, de Rougemont concluded that, although the regime was a good deal further to the left than had been appreciated in France, it was much less so than the German bourgeoisie tried to make out.


The further back you go, the more common this viewpoint is, prior to decades of certain folks wanting to minimise the atrocities of the Soviet Union and associate their political enemies or the slightest whiff of nationalism with Nazis.


It sounds like de Rougemont is suggesting that it was more of a radical centrist regime in practice, which isn't entirely unfair. It wouldn't have taken especially radical social safety net policies to be viewed as 'a good deal further to the left' than might be expected. Some of those policies still sound relatively generous.


Agreed.

@Mikah,

No rational scholar would classify Nazism as containing any real traits of containing a left wing ideology, save maybe for the welfare cheque (which actually has its roots in 19th century Germany).


There are very few binaries in life.
Most things are shades of grey. 8)