Freedom of Speech and the recent unpleasantness

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magz
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20 Jan 2021, 12:39 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

magz wrote:

"Vote for us because the other ones are evil!"

No, you have to do your own thinking. It does not matter what another message is--it is not a comparison (white supremacy does not become valid in contrast to something else). You need to evaluate the message being given on its own merits. The "other side does it too" or "both sides are fine people" moral equivalence is a false argument.

Why did you omit the first half of my post?

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Jiheisho
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20 Jan 2021, 12:43 pm

magz wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

magz wrote:

"Vote for us because the other ones are evil!"

Why did you omit the first half of my post?

Because the "both sides are fine people" is a false argument. Trying to get a moral equivalence between NAZI and KPD parties is a false argument. If that is not your point--written environments are complex for me--then I apologize.

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20 Jan 2021, 12:49 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

... The "other side does it too" or "both sides are fine people" moral equivalence is a false argument.

↑ This...

... is worth remembering.

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Last edited by Fnord on 20 Jan 2021, 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

theprisoner
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20 Jan 2021, 12:51 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

magz wrote:

You need to evaluate the message being given on its own merits.

yeah but who actually does that? Most people just go with the flow of the status quo. unthinkingly. Whatever is more politically dominant ideology at the time. If you lived in germany in the 1930s , and decide to evaluate the message of mein kamf on its own merits, it would not matter. if you lived in Russia in the 1920s and had to evaluate the works of Lenin and Marx on its own merits, it would not matter. If you lived in a theocracy and wanted to evaluate the holy book of your specific culture, it would not matter. These are totalitarian systems. maybe they are not equivalent, but they are similar enough in organizational structure to pose the same problem to the lone individual. The key is not to live in a totalitarian state, or be manipulated into accepting one. That's why preserving free speech is so important. Its a safeguard. You discard freedom of speech, then you are on dangerous territory. Then the full force of human insanity can be unleashed. Just remember every act a goverment has ever done was completely "legal" under their own system at the time.

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magz
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20 Jan 2021, 12:53 pm

I never claimed that "both sides are fine people".
First, I agree with Walrus that presenting only two options is a false picture.
In particular, it can end up in nazis vs communist choice - evil versus evil. I don't care which one would have been worse, both were evil, neither would have been the right choice.
Second, I see very harmful populism based on this false picture, used in many different places and contexts around me.

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MaxE
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20 Jan 2021, 1:01 pm

One general remark I would make about references to German history is that in today's Europe and North America there really aren't any large Marxist-Leninist or Maoist or other parties, especially as compared to the Cold War during which France and Italy in particular had large Communist parties. Whereas far-right parties are everywhere and in control of some governments already.

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Jiheisho
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20 Jan 2021, 1:31 pm

theprisoner wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

You need to evaluate the message being given on its own merits.

yeah but who actually does that? Most people just go with the flow of the status quo. unthinkingly.

Exactly my point. What is the responsibility of the consumer of speech?

Jiheisho
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20 Jan 2021, 1:32 pm

magz wrote:

My apology. Thank you for the clarification.

theprisoner
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20 Jan 2021, 1:39 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

theprisoner wrote:

What is the responsibility of the consumer of speech?

i dont know,maybe it's to not buy everything that's sold to them or they might eat their words. critical thinking skills are hard to develop. and words can have a powerful effect on the uncritical. and the uncritical seem to outnumber the critical by a large margin.

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20 Jan 2021, 3:03 pm

Fnord wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

... The "other side does it too" or "both sides are fine people" moral equivalence is a false argument.

↑ This...

... is worth remembering.

Maybe that explains why I couldn't get the school staff to listen to me. I was using the "But they do it too" argument so they thought I was doing that than understanding they really were being bias about me and treating me different than NT students.

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Fnord
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20 Jan 2021, 3:06 pm

League_Girl wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

... The "other side does it too" or "both sides are fine people" moral equivalence is a false argument.

↑ This...

... is worth remembering.

Yes, exactly. Besides, even though "they do it too", YOU were the one who got caught, and that is all they care about.

League_Girl
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20 Jan 2021, 3:11 pm

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

... The "other side does it too" or "both sides are fine people" moral equivalence is a false argument.

↑ This...

... is worth remembering.

Yes, exactly. Besides, even though "they do it too", YOU were the one who got caught, and that is all they care about.

But the fact they were all caught on video when I got video taped in class, they were stull focused on me and didn't bat an eye on the other kids. My mom saw that, so did my therapist, they were both furious and pissed and my therapist said "this makes my job harder" to them lol.

They were caught red handed and the results were still the same so I was correct.

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Pepe
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20 Jan 2021, 5:15 pm

magz wrote:

Pepe wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

Nazi Germany is a poster child example of what happens when you take tolerance of opinions too far. But no one likes these Nazi comparisons. Don't forget about Goodwin's Law. I think that is a way to shut down arguments and discussions and dismiss feelings and dismiss any concerns. Maybe at first that Law was intended for people who compare minor things to Hitler when what he did was thousand times more worse but I think it's valid to compare what is happening now to Hitler because this is where we are heading and if we look at the German history and Hitler, we all see how it all started and we see similarities between now and back then before Nazi Germany started.

The communists, in the 1930s were a serious political force in German, also, and they too were violent bastards.
Had they won, rather than Hitler, who knows, they many have murdered more people that Stalin and Mao combined.

I think many people ignore the post-WWI situation in Germany that led to violent radicalisation.
People were poor, traumatized and humiliated. Overall situation was extremely unstable. The world people knew was falling apart.
Likely, if one crazy guy didn't surf that wave, another would. Communists probably wouldn't be any better - just more class-oriented than ethnicity-oriented in their genocide, similarily to Soviets.

The Versailles Treaty was specifically designed to punish and cripple Germany.
How did that work out, for them? :mrgreen:

After the eisenhause/morgenthau-plan mob finished killing off millions of Germans through eisenhauer's death camps and a man-mad famine within the 2 year period after the war, it was realised they needed Germany to protect Europe from the expansionist russian's.

They then poured enormous amounts of finances and resources into Germany, not through altruistic considerations, but due to their fear of russia becoming the new Nazis Germany.

Isn't humanity wonderful? :heart:

[sarcasm, obviously] :roll:

Pepe
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20 Jan 2021, 5:18 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

Pepe wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

But Hitler won. And you deflected with the "fine people on both sides" argument. The question still remains that we are seeing Nationalistic and populist movements taking over.

You are an odd bod.
Are you saying there *aren't* fine people on both the Democratic and Republican side?
Please answer the question, for the record.
I won't hold my breath. :mrgreen:

Fnord
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20 Jan 2021, 5:20 pm

League_Girl wrote:

Fnord wrote:

League_Girl wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

... The "other side does it too" or "both sides are fine people" moral equivalence is a false argument.

↑ This...

... is worth remembering.

Yes, exactly. Besides, even though "they do it too", YOU were the one who got caught, and that is all they care about.

But the fact they were all caught on video when I got video taped in class, they were stull focused on me and didn't bat an eye on the other kids. My mom saw that, so did my therapist, they were both furious and pissed and my therapist said "this makes my job harder" to them lol. They were caught red handed and the results were still the same so I was correct.

So you were singled out and others let free? I was often rounded up with the "usual suspects" whenever something was vandalized or stolen at school, but that was only because my older brothers used to engage in such acts. Were you ever absolved or vindicated?

Pepe
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20 Jan 2021, 5:23 pm

Fnord wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

... The question still remains that we are seeing Nationalistic and populist movements taking over.

Not for much longer...

Are you saying that Biden will be the new stalin and create his own 'purge'?

Where do you think the new gulags will be?
I reckon Alaska would be a good place.
I imagine it is pretty close to Siberian conditions.
Well, as close as America has.

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