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Abortion Rights On the Chopping Block

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auntblabby
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23 Dec 2021, 11:00 pm

every time the gov't bans some private activity or criminalizes something that is none of their business, it just erodes public respect for gov't and opens the door to more organized crime filling in the gap. amuuuricans will never learn.



Descartes
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23 Dec 2021, 11:32 pm

AngelRho wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see what you mean. I guess the only option is illegal means then in Texas? Does that mean that there is going to be more of a blackmarket business for that there then?

*sigh*

What the people of Texas have decided is that they see abortion as murder. Any time abortion is state-sanctioned murder, that means that the people of Texas have blood on their hands. That is simply not what the people of Texas want for themselves. So it makes perfect sense to oppose it.


But what if most people of Texas disapprove of the new abortion law? For that matter, what if a majority of Americans support the legal right to abortion? Then wouldn't that be a case of a pro-life minority imposing their will on the populace?

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-instit ... us_092021/

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/11/08 ... rty-taxes/


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AngelRho
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24 Dec 2021, 6:31 am

Descartes wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see what you mean. I guess the only option is illegal means then in Texas? Does that mean that there is going to be more of a blackmarket business for that there then?

*sigh*

What the people of Texas have decided is that they see abortion as murder. Any time abortion is state-sanctioned murder, that means that the people of Texas have blood on their hands. That is simply not what the people of Texas want for themselves. So it makes perfect sense to oppose it.


But what if most people of Texas disapprove of the new abortion law? For that matter, what if a majority of Americans support the legal right to abortion? Then wouldn't that be a case of a pro-life minority imposing their will on the populace?

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-instit ... us_092021/

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/11/08 ... rty-taxes/

First of all, the majority CAN be wrong about something. The majority of Americans don’t necessarily reflect the majority of Texans. If most people in Texas oppose the new abortion law, then they need to make their voices heard when it comes election time and replace their state legislators. By electing who they elected, they agreed to support whatever laws they passed.

Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population, so often even liberals (who tend to speak for minority communities) will oppose abortion in these areas. In Texas, you have a sizable Hispanic population who are overwhelmingly Catholic, and they are predominantly against abortion. So any indication that Texas is a pro-abortion state is a myth.



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26 Dec 2021, 12:12 am

AngelRho wrote:
*sigh*

Ok...nobody's saying what this is really about, so I guess I will.

The law is a legislative action, right? And legislators are elected by popular vote, right? To stay in power they are obligated to reflect the will of their respective constituencies. So passing a law in Texas (or anywhere, really) is not simply a matter of one party maintaining power over the other. In this case it is about the ideals of the people of the state of Texas.


You make it sounds like it's a single decision taken collectively by all the people of Texas. It's not. Both chambers of the Texas State Legislature have members representing different regions of the map and Texas is notorious for gerrymandering.

As you know both chambers of the Texas State Legislature have their elections on weekdays. This favours people who are able to take leave.


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RetroGamer87
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26 Dec 2021, 12:32 am

AngelRho wrote:
Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population

If black people have greater need for safe and accessible abortions than banning abortion will hurt black people more. Driving abortion underground is extremely dangerous. If black people are more likely to get abortions than black people will be more likely to be harmed from underground abortions.


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AngelRho
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26 Dec 2021, 7:53 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population

If black people have greater need for safe and accessible abortions than banning abortion will hurt black people more. Driving abortion underground is extremely dangerous. If black people are more likely to get abortions than black people will be more likely to be harmed from underground abortions.

Abortion is not something many people actually need. I’d say more like a demand that arose out of an ideology. Regardless, it’s not treated like a necessity, but rather more like a commodity.

And it doesn’t even really matter. If you drive something underground, as a society you put the responsibility for being harmed by it on the individuals involved. You can’t point your finger at Texas and say “Texas approves of abortion.” The people of Texas aren’t faced with approving of murder. But when individuals get unnecessary abortions and are harmed by it, you could prosecute abortion providers for murder, manslaughter, negligence, or what have you. Or if a girl is in the hospital for an infection or self-injury, you slap her with a bill and call it punishment enough. But there is no need to assume that hundreds of thousands of women are going to run out and do these things. Some women will not get abortions when they might have had abortion been legal, and those who were going to do it anyway will do it.

I’m also presenting an old-fashioned view of abortion in terms of the “classic” D&C which can cause scarring of the womb, the saline method, and the wire hanger. I’ve known some unstable people who’ve gone as far as wrecking cars, having “accidents”, or they “lost” the baby. Medical abortions are much safer than in-clinic abortions, so you’re really just talking about an underground trade in methotrexate and misoprostol, or other, more effective abortion-inducing drugs. Given that even “underground” possibilities present minimal risk comparable to current legal forms of baby-killing, it’s not even necessary to conclude that banning abortion is more harmful than keeping it legal.



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26 Dec 2021, 8:42 pm

AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population

If black people have greater need for safe and accessible abortions than banning abortion will hurt black people more. Driving abortion underground is extremely dangerous. If black people are more likely to get abortions than black people will be more likely to be harmed from underground abortions.

Abortion is not something many people actually need.

You don't need it. Don't tell other people what they need.


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AngelRho
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26 Dec 2021, 9:28 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population

If black people have greater need for safe and accessible abortions than banning abortion will hurt black people more. Driving abortion underground is extremely dangerous. If black people are more likely to get abortions than black people will be more likely to be harmed from underground abortions.

Abortion is not something many people actually need.

You don't need it. Don't tell other people what they need.

Abortion is not a necessity. Period. It’s an elective procedure. Botox injections. Butt implants. Murdering children. It’s only one out of so many options. If a woman would literally die without an abortion, I could understand describing it as a necessity. Unless that’s the case, it’s not needed.



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26 Dec 2021, 9:38 pm

AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population

If black people have greater need for safe and accessible abortions than banning abortion will hurt black people more. Driving abortion underground is extremely dangerous. If black people are more likely to get abortions than black people will be more likely to be harmed from underground abortions.

Abortion is not something many people actually need.

You don't need it. Don't tell other people what they need.

Abortion is not a necessity. Period. It’s an elective procedure. Botox injections. Butt implants. Murdering children. It’s only one out of so many options. If a woman would literally die without an abortion, I could understand describing it as a necessity. Unless that’s the case, it’s not needed.


A guy who's never been through pregnancy, birth complications, miscarriage, or any of the 1001 traumas and issues women face with pregnancy, especially women who have been raped or are too poor to raise the baby, you really think it's appropriate for your privileged self to tell women what is or isn't a necessity as far as their bodies go??

Really?



RetroGamer87
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26 Dec 2021, 9:42 pm

AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population

If black people have greater need for safe and accessible abortions than banning abortion will hurt black people more. Driving abortion underground is extremely dangerous. If black people are more likely to get abortions than black people will be more likely to be harmed from underground abortions.

Abortion is not something many people actually need.

You don't need it. Don't tell other people what they need.

Abortion is not a necessity. Period.

It's not a necessity for you. Stop telling other people what they need.


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AngelRho
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26 Dec 2021, 10:48 pm

DmitriNicholaev wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population

If black people have greater need for safe and accessible abortions than banning abortion will hurt black people more. Driving abortion underground is extremely dangerous. If black people are more likely to get abortions than black people will be more likely to be harmed from underground abortions.

Abortion is not something many people actually need.

You don't need it. Don't tell other people what they need.

Abortion is not a necessity. Period. It’s an elective procedure. Botox injections. Butt implants. Murdering children. It’s only one out of so many options. If a woman would literally die without an abortion, I could understand describing it as a necessity. Unless that’s the case, it’s not needed.


A guy who's never been through pregnancy, birth complications, miscarriage, or any of the 1001 traumas and issues women face with pregnancy, especially women who have been raped or are too poor to raise the baby, you really think it's appropriate for your privileged self to tell women what is or isn't a necessity as far as their bodies go??

Really?

Irrelevant. Demonstrate how abortion is necessary to keep a person alive.



AngelRho
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26 Dec 2021, 10:50 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population

If black people have greater need for safe and accessible abortions than banning abortion will hurt black people more. Driving abortion underground is extremely dangerous. If black people are more likely to get abortions than black people will be more likely to be harmed from underground abortions.

Abortion is not something many people actually need.

You don't need it. Don't tell other people what they need.

Abortion is not a necessity. Period.

It's not a necessity for you. Stop telling other people what they need.

Abortion is not a necessity for staying alive. If it ever becomes a necessity, then that is an exception.



RetroGamer87
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27 Dec 2021, 5:26 am

AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population

If black people have greater need for safe and accessible abortions than banning abortion will hurt black people more. Driving abortion underground is extremely dangerous. If black people are more likely to get abortions than black people will be more likely to be harmed from underground abortions.

Abortion is not something many people actually need.

You don't need it. Don't tell other people what they need.

Abortion is not a necessity. Period.

It's not a necessity for you. Stop telling other people what they need.

Abortion is not a necessity for staying alive. If it ever becomes a necessity, then that is an exception.

There is no if. People have already died because they didn't have access to abortion.

Also don't tell people they don't need something just because they won't die without it.


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AngelRho
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27 Dec 2021, 8:57 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Most abortions have the effect of limiting specifically the black population

If black people have greater need for safe and accessible abortions than banning abortion will hurt black people more. Driving abortion underground is extremely dangerous. If black people are more likely to get abortions than black people will be more likely to be harmed from underground abortions.

Abortion is not something many people actually need.

You don't need it. Don't tell other people what they need.

Abortion is not a necessity. Period.

It's not a necessity for you. Stop telling other people what they need.

Abortion is not a necessity for staying alive. If it ever becomes a necessity, then that is an exception.

There is no if. People have already died because they didn't have access to abortion.

Also don't tell people they don't need something just because they won't die without it.

Abortion is not a necessity for staying alive. If it ever becomes a necessity, then that is an exception.



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27 Dec 2021, 9:48 am

^ You're shifting your own personal goalposts - "Abortion is not a necessity. Period" has become "Abortion is not a necessity for staying alive".
But a "necessity" is not dependent on "staying alive" - it takes many forms.

Also, what RetroGamer87said.
You tried much the same thing in dictating what a circumcision cut felt like to a baby on another thread - but maybe that should simply be defined as baby mutilation. At least then you'd be a little more consistent, and accurate, with your labeling. :wink:


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AngelRho
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27 Dec 2021, 11:35 am

Cornflake wrote:
^ You're shifting your own personal goalposts - "Abortion is not a necessity. Period" has become "Abortion is not a necessity for staying alive".
But a "necessity" is not dependent on "staying alive" - it takes many forms.

Also, what RetroGamer87said.
You tried much the same thing in dictating what a circumcision cut felt like to a baby on another thread - but maybe that should simply be defined as baby mutilation. At least then you'd be a little more consistent, and accurate, with your labeling. :wink:

It’s a clarification, not a goalpost. Conditions for staying alive involve safety, food, and water. Without food, water, and oxygen, the human organism dies. Abortion is not something that keeps a human organism alive.

Until it does. And I’ve made it abundantly clear what I mean by that. You won’t ordinarily be blamed for killing someone who threatens to kill you. You can’t be blamed for killing anyone when the alternative means the loss of your own life. It is possible to justify killing in self defense, war, and the death penalty. At other times killing isn’t justified, strictly speaking, but doesn’t carry the expected penalty for murder: Negligence, accidents, wrongful death, etc. If you can show that abortion is an emergency, life-saving procedure, then there is no reasonable argument to denying someone access to it.