Extreme Christians

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Explain the illogical aspects of it, and I'll be happy to see where I made the mistake. I like to think I'm good at logic, but maybe you have something eye opening that I have missed. The example is not important, but the idea behind it is: Its impossible to be omnipotent, as two actions may conflict, causing you to not be all powerful.

I was born a catholic, and went to Catholic school until I was in High School. I studied the Bible daily. So I would say thats 16 years of studying it

However, its not required to study theology to see how illogical it is. Studying theology is like studying the Emperors fashion; all it takes is an outsider to see that he is , in fact, wearing no clothes. You could say he is above the laws of logic (which makes no sense), or that he is above the laws of nature.

I would say that so are fairies and unicorns, and they have just as much a chance of existing.

If you want to deny the laws of nature and logic, then you might as well just throw your computer out the window. They didn't make that with fairy dust

Whether or not God exists, doesn't it make logical sense to believe rather than not? If God doesn't exist, and people believe, then when they die, that's it. Nothing gained, nothing lost. However, if God does exist, and people don't believe, they all go to Hell. Faith cannot be proven or disproved, that's the very nature of faith and God for that matter. As for the omnipotence conundrum, it is attempting to define by the laws of the universe that which cannot be defined by them. Do you think God is actually pondering whether or not he wants to heat a burrito that hot, or create a rock so heavy he can't move it? No, instead He's enjoying a chuckle at His creations puzzling over unnecessary things.

For the record, I am a Christian, raised in a Christian home and went to church (forced mostly) for most of my life. I disagree with the way the church in general treats people that are different from the norm (Including Aspies) and I do not currently belong to any church or affiliate myself with any denomination. I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anybody, but just attempting to shift the focus of the debates that are raging from meaningless banter to something that makes people really think.

Call me stupid if you like, I don't really care, I'm not here to engage in another debate. Isn't it at least remotely possible for something to exist that is completely beyond anything human beings will ever fully comprehend, something that cannot be defined by our understanding?

So, are computers formed by randomly connecting components to each other?

That, to me, would be as likely as fairies existing.

:Bashes head against the counter:

I think you need to read more about evolution. The only random part is the mutations. Natural selection filters those mutations so the best ones are passed to the next generation. Over a matter of time it is very effective. We're talking billions of years.

In all honesty, its funny you have mentioned that. They are actually using evolution to build computers. They have found some really odd combinations of circuitry, that are actually very efficient ! You should really read more on the subject, because it doesn't just apply to computers. It is being used through out industry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_computation

When you take Pascal's wager, you need to also realize there are many gods throughout the world. Why not believe in one of them instead? You can't, because belief in one god would conflict with belief in another (They are jealous gods). So, why shouldn't a god reward a critical thinker, instead of a blind follower? If the god on high was a scientist god, you would be screwed.

Thats the biggest cop out ever. God isn't defined by universal laws. Okay, fairies aren't either. They MUST exist. If you deny the laws of nature, you have to allow for all kinds of other nonsense, like flying spaghetti monsters. They have just as much a chance of existing as your god.

I would call it the most necessary thing of all. We're pondering what started the universe.

Yes , of course science can't understand everything. That doesn't mean you can just postulate a god to fill in the voids. I could postulate a million other things, like miniature universe building machines, and they are just as likely.

Last edited by Kalister1 on 05 May 2008, 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I consider myself an agnostic-atheist. Not in the sense that I'm not sure if there's a god or not, I know for a fact there isn't, the 'God' belief is something that was developed on Earth by our earlier human relatives. The same goes for every other belief. The reason I consider myself partially agnostic is because I don't know what made the Universe, and no current explanation available is good enough in my opinion. Things like Evolution however have more than enough evidence for me to believe, it practically looks obvious that that's the way life developed after you take a good look at it. Religion is already starting to die out more and more over the years, I'd say maybe give it a good 500 years and we'll be past this dull period. Like the other guy in this thread said the omnipotent example is a good paradox. However I'll use a different example that I prefer more: Can God create a tree that he himself cannot cut down? If he cannot cut down the tree he made he cannot do anything, and if he can't make a tree that he cannot cut down he cannot do anything either. The Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions all claim their God can do anything (or omnipotence), but as we can see that's clearly not possible. If I was going to drop all my logical thinking and have 'faith' in a sh***y story to explain the world without any common sense or evidence, I'd go for something more entertaining than some man in the clouds who loves to bully the people below into following his rules, which I'd estimate 90% of christians I know don't even follow his rules. You cannot lie? I sure know a lot of christians that lie.. And I love how hate crimes are considered illegal in this country yet plenty christians are aloud to publicly bash gays and such. That's just wrong.

Yeah. I agree with the agnostic-atheist thing. I don't believe in a diety (atheist), but I don't know if you can ever ABSOLUTELY disprove him. (Maybe in the future, but maybe not)

One addresses belief (atheist), the other knowledge(agnostic).

Still, trying to use god to fill in the voids is like using the color blue to fill in the voids. Why not use red? (Red being some other hypothesis). I'd like to put forth the Flying Spaghetti Monster:

http://www.venganza.org/

He rocks. Best god ever. Here is him chilling out.



Though, if I threw out logic, then I could believe in Judeo-Christian god.

Again, with the generalizations. How do you know this for fact? Yes, there are many christians who have only read a few lines and consider themselves experts, but at least as many have actually read the bible. THe big problem is that both believers and non believers make general statements about each other. BOTH SIDES. Here is my problem.

I am a believer and i am lumped in with the crazies and the zealots alike. Much like many nonbelievers are lumped in with communists and dictators who abolish religions in their countries. Unfair isnt it? I think so.
I understand that numerous people have suffered under the hands of church leaders and hateful religious authorities. I dont think the state and the church should go hand in hand. Yes, i think kids should be allowed to pray in school, but I also think they should not be forced to do so. Nor do I think that i would want to live in a religious state.... Yeah, it worked so freakin well with the Holy Roman Empire didnt it?

I agree, that people should read the bible and think for themselves....Its their choice and it should be. You see, if something is forced on someone with a will of their own, they are never going to completely embrace it. I believe there is something out there called free will that is a pivotal part of the whole belief process for anyone. It boils down to a choice. When people are not given those choices, we have a problem.

As far as televangelists go, Keep in mind that many of them are freaks and nobody i know who are believers look or act like these overexposed, overpaid hams. THere are some that are legit. Just like there are many legitimate athiests in this world. I can respect that. I can also take responsibility of myself and myself alone as far as christianity goes. I like to adhere to Christ's teaching of his law of love that he added to the ten comandments. Why? Because it gives the intended motive for laws. In the mindset of compassion and love, one thinks twice about oppressing others and more about helping them and treating them like human beings. True compassion and kindness levels the playing field because each person is viewed as valuable.

I'm Roman Catholic and will admit that evangelical Christians and especially Jehovah Witnesses give me the creeps.

I'm a Christian but Extreme Christians and Jehovah Witnesses give me the creeps too.

I'm creeped out by atheists, agnostics, and Wiccans just as much as I am by the extreme Christians.

False dichotomy.

Heh, well I agree its a false dichotomy, but its not an obvious one, especially if you've been raised Christian (in that religion, its a real dichotomy).

Ohio is a moderate state that is mix with Republican and Democrat. If anything that is passed, it is passed between two side.

Jesus Camp is nothing but a tool used by Satan himself to make an mockery out of Christian. It no difference than Westboro Baptist Church. For the sake of sanity, can kids and adult learn better if they learn it in harmony rather than protesting, hating the wrong idea, and making thing a big deal.

Chaos is the only way to stir up a crowd to out of control. This is hard to debate when this happen.

But what if your religious views are not of that construct, Soopervilin? What if one has a much different spiritual construct that does not have a 'hell' nor a 'heaven' nor even a 'that's it!' after the death of the body?

it is not an 'if this, then that' closed argument. There are far more beliefs than only one God construct in the world. What about, say people that have just as firm a belief in reincarnation? Then your dynamic fails.

(Personally, I think that the 'God Construct' is a phenomenon local to the mind of those harmonizing with that thought form. What you 'believe' is the energy pattern you set up for yourself when you don't have a body integrated with your 'self' any more. That all 'God' is local to the mind of the individual and the group that fosters that identity pattern. Just as we don't have the same lives when we do have a body, we don't have the same after death experiences, either, what "happens" is not universal to everyone.)

Merle

ah. . so you are a Pastafarian!