21 May 2008, 4:03 pm
21 May 2008, 4:09 pm
oscuria wrote:
greenblue wrote:
I see this problem with parakeet's post, "it's all the same to me", now, I can say this comes from ignorance about the subject, why, because refusing to accept it, refusing to know or gain more accurate information about it, because of the stigma transgendered people have, some people just don't want to know, and they want to ignore it.
But trying to see this as objective as possible we can, it is different, I know that sexuality is not as simple as some people want to put it, a lot of sexual issues do exist, some have fetishes, preferences, gender identity and sexual orientation, they don't have to be confused, as they both are different things, not all gays are neccesarily feminine, not all lesbians are necessarily masculine, not all transgendered women are necessarily attracted to women, not all transgendered men are necessarily attracted to men. The problem is with stereotypes when people asume it is always the case, then again, we know from history that ignorance has had bad consecuences, sadly.
But trying to see this as objective as possible we can, it is different, I know that sexuality is not as simple as some people want to put it, a lot of sexual issues do exist, some have fetishes, preferences, gender identity and sexual orientation, they don't have to be confused, as they both are different things, not all gays are neccesarily feminine, not all lesbians are necessarily masculine, not all transgendered women are necessarily attracted to women, not all transgendered men are necessarily attracted to men. The problem is with stereotypes when people asume it is always the case, then again, we know from history that ignorance has had bad consecuences, sadly.
See. I won't speak for them, but the part "It's all the same to me" makes sense. Why? Because even if they feel that way it wont make a difference. Yes, it is refusing to acknowledge the feelings of the person, but it won't matter. There is a limit to how humane a person can be towards the wants of people. It has nothing to do with trying to be cruel, ignorant, etc. It has to do with giving up principles the person has. There is not going to be a middle-path in this matter.
I didn't read your whole post so I'm probably off
It IS ignorance, I say this, because I was ignorant about transgenderism a while ago, and I used to think that it must have had a conexion with sexual orientation, and that all gay men and women where somehow transgendered, even though I felt sympathetic with them, I indeed was ignorant, I may still be a little, there are however some things that are not clear for me, like social gender roles and gender identity, and if they are related and how and stuff.
Nevertheless, I try not to make generalization like you seem to do, based on dislike or disgust or considering it inmoral, etc. so my point has value, refusing to accept and not wanting to know. I have seen in real life that a lot of people don't know about it, and confused both things, because, well, they just didn't want to know. More education is what we need.
People refused to believe Galileo because what he said, was considered blasphemy, I'm quite sure they didn't want to know and to even hear about it.
Last edited by greenblue on 21 May 2008, 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
21 May 2008, 4:23 pm
21 May 2008, 5:39 pm
21 May 2008, 9:19 pm
21 May 2008, 9:52 pm
I guess its too bad that the world and the people in it dont live up to your expectations about how things oughta be..........
......Tough SH1T Buddy, GET USED TO IT 
oscuria wrote:
greenblue wrote:
It IS ignorance, I say this, because I was ignorant about transgenderism a while ago, and I used to think that it must have had a conexion with sexual orientation, and that all gay men and women where somehow transgendered, even though I felt sympathetic with them, I indeed was ignorant, I may still be a little, there are however some things that are not clear for me, like social gender roles and gender identity, and if they are related and how and stuff.
Nevertheless, I try not to make generalization like you seem to do, based on dislike or disgust or considering it inmoral, etc. so my point has value, refusing to accept and not wanting to know. I have seen in real life that a lot of people don't know about it, and confused both things, because, well, they just didn't want to know. More education is what we need.
People refused to believe Galileo because what he said, was considered blasphemy, I'm quite sure they didn't want to know and to even hear about it.
Nevertheless, I try not to make generalization like you seem to do, based on dislike or disgust or considering it inmoral, etc. so my point has value, refusing to accept and not wanting to know. I have seen in real life that a lot of people don't know about it, and confused both things, because, well, they just didn't want to know. More education is what we need.
People refused to believe Galileo because what he said, was considered blasphemy, I'm quite sure they didn't want to know and to even hear about it.
Actually, ignorant means not informed. A person can still be uncaring and unemotional towards that which he (or she) will find little sympathy against, it won't matter how much education a person receives. I am aware that a person might feel "lost in their bodies" but that alone is not enough for me to accept it.
I knew of a classmate who was very effeminate, but I don't believe he was gay. This still to me seemed an incorrect way for a male to live. If my brother or son were to even want to become a woman, it would be something I could never accept. I know he is not a female, he should know this too. Nothing can change this fact, and I'm at a point where I cannot be convinced. However, I have made this point many times: A person who cannot accept another person's lifestyle or choices does not imply that he hates that person. If a friend or relative was a prostitute I would abhor her practice, that does not mean I would hate her personally, however.
Galileo spoke of the unseen and that which was considered unreal at the time, transgenderism is all too real and all too visible.
These things have always been a part of society, but to this day it is still unacceptable to a great deal of people.
21 May 2008, 9:55 pm
21 May 2008, 9:56 pm
21 May 2008, 10:04 pm
As a matter of fact I Do Oscuria but I have very little patience and tolerance for your position. You talked about the effeminate classmate and how he did not fit You ideas about how people out to behave. I personally dont expect society and/or other people to change to suit me, but neither will I change to suit other people. NO ONE should be obligated to do so which is why we have the Constitution and the Bill O' Rights! The classmate was NOT violating your rights or giving you a hard time nor were they asking for your approval; so therefore how you personally may feel about such things is YOURS and yours alone to Deal With. To put it simply: if you dislike someone else for they way they are or they choices they make that Do NOT impinge on you than YOU are the one with the problem! Not them! 
21 May 2008, 10:14 pm
D1nk0 wrote:
As a matter of fact I Do Oscuria but I have very little patience and tolerance for your position. You talked about the effeminate classmate and how he did not fit You ideas about how people out to behave. I personally dont expect society and/or other people to change to suit me, but neither will I change to suit other people. NO ONE should be obligated to do so which is why we have the Constitution and the Bill O' Rights! The classmate was NOT violating your rights or giving you a hard time nor were they asking for your approval; so therefore how you personally may feel about such things is YOURS and yours alone to Deal With. To put it simply: if you dislike someone else for they way they are or they choices they make that Do NOT impinge on you than YOU are the one with the problem! Not them!
It is funny how we all interpret the Constitution, or rather the Bill of Rights, differently. I don't see in it anything that allows the things that people do (they are to be assumed--but to what extent?). There is no right to privacy, there is no right to dress like a ridiculous twit. It is assumed, but then again you can argue either way. If such was the case, there'd be no dress code. It would be unconstitutional and against the rights of the people.
The fact that I didn't find the classmate's mannerisms acceptable does not implies my will in having him change or in harming it. It showed that I understood he was, from what I heard at least, not gay. I accept the fact that he is who he is. However, this does not mean that I will readily go out on the streets and march for the acceptance of the transgendered/transsexuals. I've made the point in this thread a few pages back that I accept the fact that they are who they are (my main problem is in the way some choose to live).
I do not feel it should be encouraged, and that is how I will remain.
wsmac
Veteran
Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Humboldt County California
22 May 2008, 11:13 pm
oscuria wrote:
...there is no right to dress like a ridiculous twit...
How do you defend such a comment oscuria?
Who defines what type of clothing represents dressing as a ridiculous twit?
So far, in all your arguments concerning sexuality and gender, you fail to offer facts in support of your arguments; you only offer personal opinion.
So we all know.. or at least anyone reading the myriad of posts on these subjects here on WP should know, that you personally do not like things you classify as deviant, abnormal, and so on.
I have no problem with that.
But when you wish to dictate public policy to exclude people from participating in a government sanctioned exercise such as marriage, then I expect you to come up with some logical explanation to defend such a demand on your part.
Simply stating you do not like gay marriage is fine with me.
Suggesting that this country keep such things illegal and then not producing an argument that would support such a statement is a bit pathetic to me.
You continue to dance around these issues heaving your personal feelings to the front in defence of yourself.
Why can't you engage people with something better?
22 May 2008, 11:15 pm
wsmac
Veteran
Joined: 31 Aug 2007
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,888
Location: Humboldt County California
23 May 2008, 12:53 am
skafather84 wrote:
wsmac wrote:
Who defines what type of clothing represents dressing as a ridiculous twit?
check his closet.
23 May 2008, 2:01 am
oscuria wrote:
D1nk0 wrote:
As a matter of fact I Do Oscuria but I have very little patience and tolerance for your position. You talked about the effeminate classmate and how he did not fit You ideas about how people out to behave. I personally dont expect society and/or other people to change to suit me, but neither will I change to suit other people. NO ONE should be obligated to do so which is why we have the Constitution and the Bill O' Rights! The classmate was NOT violating your rights or giving you a hard time nor were they asking for your approval; so therefore how you personally may feel about such things is YOURS and yours alone to Deal With. To put it simply: if you dislike someone else for they way they are or they choices they make that Do NOT impinge on you than YOU are the one with the problem! Not them!
It is funny how we all interpret the Constitution, or rather the Bill of Rights, differently. I don't see in it anything that allows the things that people do (they are to be assumed--but to what extent?). There is no right to privacy, there is no right to dress like a ridiculous twit. It is assumed, but then again you can argue either way. If such was the case, there'd be no dress code. It would be unconstitutional and against the rights of the people.
The fact that I didn't find the classmate's mannerisms acceptable does not implies my will in having him change or in harming it. It showed that I understood he was, from what I heard at least, not gay. I accept the fact that he is who he is. However, this does not mean that I will readily go out on the streets and march for the acceptance of the transgendered/transsexuals. I've made the point in this thread a few pages back that I accept the fact that they are who they are (my main problem is in the way some choose to live).
I do not feel it should be encouraged, and that is how I will remain.
Quote:
I've made the point in this thread a few pages back that I accept the fact that they are who they are (my main problem is in the way some choose to live).
So you accept the fact of who they are yet you're still ranting about how they choose to live?
The way some choose to live in what way?
If it involves the harm of others, the same can be said about anyone if you watch or read the news. In fact I see more crimes against those who don't fit your lifestyle...it's called Hate Crime. Funny thing is some people get killed in Hate Crimes just from the assumption that they didn't fit your so-called problem.
BTW, if they really choose their lifestyles then why would they accept the intolerance of people such as yourself in a society that looks down upon it?
Quote:
However, this does not mean that I will readily go out on the streets and march for the acceptance of the transgendered/transsexuals
Who said you had to?
Quote:
I do not feel it should be encouraged, and that is how I will remain.
Encouraged, in what way?
You mean you're afraid everyone including yourself will be encouraged to turn homosexual?
23 May 2008, 5:38 pm
23 May 2008, 5:41 pm
^You sure about that? 
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