Of what real value is evolutionary "knowledge"?

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Orwell
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11 May 2008, 11:34 am

Ragtime wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Ah, evolution. Bringing people closer together in love and respect, one hatred at a time. :thumleft:
He was upset, and it is not wrong for him to be so. Anyone should have been upset by Mr. Stein's folly on that page.


That Mr. Stein was added to the list of people Orwell hates is a red flag.

There is no actual list, Ragtime, as I'm sure you know. And "hate" is probably too strong a word to describe my annoyance at Stein's dishonesty and foolishness. People like that aggravate me.

Ragtime wrote:
One would not need to be dishonest in any way to point out that the evidence (the evidence honestly arrived at, that is) shows evolution to be shabby and full of holes.

Yes, you do. Give an example to back up this assertion if you can. There is plenty of evidence for evolution, and it has even been observed directly. You lose.

Ragtime wrote:
Scientists' pathetic defenses of evolution are laughable and sad, and quite clearly twisted and biased toward perpetuating their own careers.

As compared to creationist arguments that rely on a lack of a basic understanding of thermodynamics? Give an example of a defense that is "laughable," "sad," or "twisted and biased."


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11 May 2008, 11:39 am

Ragtime wrote:
One would not need to be dishonest in any way to point out that the evidence (the evidence honestly arrived at, that is) shows evolution to be shabby and full of holes.

Oh wait a moment... is this a lead in to another of your anti-theist conspiracy theories? Us godless scientists clearly have been fabricating evidence found by numerous researchers all over the world, many of whom are Christian themselves. :roll:


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11 May 2008, 11:44 am

Orwell wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
No. The sane reaction to someone seeming to be a fool would be sympathy. Vitriol comes from the fact that you are evil. Your argument is extremely juvenile, along the lines of "He made me hit him!"

This is an AS forum, Ragtime. Most of us do not suffer fools willingly. The vitriol is because of, as AG pointed out, the ID movement's blatant intellectual dishonesty. Calling someone "evil" hardly seems mature.


So the ID movement makes you hate everyone involved? Ben Stein made you hate him? The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, self-control (and one other one), so it's not Christian to hate people, as that list clearly indicates.



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11 May 2008, 11:50 am

Ragtime wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
No. The sane reaction to someone seeming to be a fool would be sympathy. Vitriol comes from the fact that you are evil. Your argument is extremely juvenile, along the lines of "He made me hit him!"

This is an AS forum, Ragtime. Most of us do not suffer fools willingly. The vitriol is because of, as AG pointed out, the ID movement's blatant intellectual dishonesty. Calling someone "evil" hardly seems mature.


So the ID movement makes you hate everyone involved? Ben Stein made you hate him? The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, self-control (and one other one), so it's not Christian to hate people, as that list clearly indicates.

When has anyone ever said that? You are trying my patience, Ragtime. Let's just drop this ad hominem nonsense, and I would appreciate it if you would stop accusing me of being some kind of heretic. I have brought up several serious issues, in this thread and others. Respond to them if your intellectual capabilities permit. Otherwise, drop the subject, as you really are just coming off as an arrogant jerk.


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11 May 2008, 11:50 am

Orwell wrote:
Us godless scientists clearly have been fabricating evidence found by numerous researchers all over the world, many of whom are Christian themselves. :roll:


That is very well put! :)



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11 May 2008, 11:52 am

Ragtime wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Us godless scientists clearly have been fabricating evidence found by numerous researchers all over the world, many of whom are Christian themselves. :roll:


That is very well put! :)

It is called "sarcasm." I should realize to use it in moderation here, considering most of us have some form of ASD, but I thought the - :roll: - made my sarcastic intent obvious enough. At this point you are just being deliberately antagonistic while refusing to address any relevant issues.


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11 May 2008, 11:53 am

And stop with the conspiracy theories. I'm not interested.


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11 May 2008, 12:14 pm

Orwell wrote:
And stop with the conspiracy theories. I'm not interested.


are you beginning to understand Orwell? (see discussion in "evolution vs. Creation- serious discussion only please)



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11 May 2008, 12:17 pm

Izaak wrote:
Orwell wrote:
And stop with the conspiracy theories. I'm not interested.


are you beginning to understand Orwell? (see discussion in "evolution vs. Creation- serious discussion only please)

With Ragtime at least, yes. All he's done is play holier-than-thou, promote the deliberate spread of admitted lies and ignorance, and make up conspiracy theories to explain why there is no evidence whatsoever for his claims. iamnotaparakeet can be more reasonable than this, though I am still waiting for him to be willing to challenge me on any scientific issue.


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11 May 2008, 12:22 pm

Ragtime wrote:
biologists publicly assent to evolution even while many privately doubt it

Substantiate this claim or recant it.


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11 May 2008, 12:24 pm

Orwell wrote:
Izaak wrote:
Orwell wrote:
And stop with the conspiracy theories. I'm not interested.


are you beginning to understand Orwell? (see discussion in "evolution vs. Creation- serious discussion only please)

With Ragtime at least, yes. All he's done is play holier-than-thou, promote the deliberate spread of admitted lies and ignorance, and make up conspiracy theories to explain why there is no evidence whatsoever for his claims. iamnotaparakeet can be more reasonable than this, though I am still waiting for him to be willing to challenge me on any scientific issue.


He never will. As I said, he doesn't want to confront ACTUAL issues. All he wants is you to concede that there is the possibility that ID is somehow based in reality. The very fact that you are trying to get him to assert this fact is an issue of concession. Because there is NO WAY that ID can assert any fact. It is based on the premise that reality does not necessarily exist as we experience it. That human perception is not capable of verifying "true" reality. And that our cognitive faculty pales in comparison to revelation.

THOSE are the premises ID people operate off. So what I am actually asking is for you (and all those that know of the theory of evolution) to stop giving them the benefit of a doubt that you know not to be there. If they change their premises to "existence exists" and "humans perception and cognition is capable of understanding reality" then sure... debate away. Until then... stop pretending that Creationists share a cognitive base upon which debate is possible.



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11 May 2008, 1:55 pm

It's becoming apparent that Ragtime is a fanatic who won't ever question his beliefs even if they are falsified right in front of his eyes, he'll just invent some conspiracy theory to rationalize away the falsification. He constantly asserts that there is no evidence for evolution as if everything we have told him has went right over his head.

It is because of fanatics like Ragtime that religion is dangerous. Promise some gullible idiot that he'll get eternal life and he'll loose any reasonableness and logic he had.


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11 May 2008, 2:25 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Sedaka wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
greenblue wrote:
Kalister1 wrote:
Which puts god out of the equation...

He wants to put god in a scientific paper, yet by his own admission god can not fit into the criteria of scientific.

Not really. It puts Creationism out of the equation to be exact, not God.


O RLY?

So are Creationist theories, models, hypotheses able to be falsified?

Not to you, since you will continue to believe them regardless of the evidence presented.


You are so clueless and willing to tell me how I think, clever you believe you are.

Are they falsifiable? Yes or no?

If they are then they are in the realm of science, but if they aren't they they cannot be disproved. Take your pick and think about why you pick it.


yes of course creationism if falsifiable by science


That is delusion. 8O

Unless the "science" you refer to is corrupted by human bias (as I've previously suggested). Creationism is not falsifiable;that it is, is perhaps the most absurd claim I've ever heard.


i wasnt referring to the ultimate beginning... but things like deducing how old the earth is ect... i've said before, there's no proving god or anything of the like... so that's not what i meant... sorry i was unclear.


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11 May 2008, 2:28 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Escuerd wrote:
Kalister1 wrote:
:jaw drops for the third time:

That was the most ret*d video ever.


I could swear I posted an even worse one featuring Ben Stein.

Yes you did. You added to the list of people I hate when you did that.


Ah, evolution. Bringing people closer together in love and respect, one hatred at a time. :thumleft:

See, Christianity teaches to love our enemies, and "enemies" is certainly a stronger term than simply "people who believe in evolution", so our command to love people is all the more applicable to them. If evolutionists don't listen to our arguments, we don't hate them for it. But you just admitted to hate Ben Stein. And I hear lots of hatred in the evolution threads coming from the evolutionists, but iamnotaparakeet and I have no hatred towards you -- to us, it's just a disagreement on positions, not a call to arms.
But this hatred from you and other anti-God people in the evolution threads evidences that you're on the wrong side of the spiritual spectrum. Consider that for a moment.


that i consider you a good friend and respect your beliefs (as civilly as i can)... should be a demonstration that that is not the case...

yes it's a disagreement on positions... but you are offering no contributions to working through it... you just say nu uh... and never actually engage in the conversation

at least iamnotaparakeet has stated what he's willing to believe and reject.


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11 May 2008, 2:33 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
All this arguing brings me to my secondary point: Of what real value is all this arguing about evolution? What grand good is going to be accomplished if creationists begin to believe in evolution? WTF is gonna change the world for the better if creationists became converted to believe in a politicized "science" that has not been proven conclusively to have occurred, or to be in the process of occurring?

Well, the value is that it prevents bad science from getting into the school system and justifies the proper conclusions.


Note to AG: politicized science IS bad science! The bad science in the classroom stops with evolution ceasing to be taught as a fact! Teach it as what it is, a near-retarded theory. (Sorry for insulting your religion.)


we do teach it as a theory and not as fact. sorry but it's true... just like physics teaches theory.

i don't care what adjectives you choose to associate it with.


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11 May 2008, 2:35 pm

Orwell wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
No. The sane reaction to someone seeming to be a fool would be sympathy. Vitriol comes from the fact that you are evil. Your argument is extremely juvenile, along the lines of "He made me hit him!"

This is an AS forum, Ragtime. Most of us do not suffer fools willingly. The vitriol is because of, as AG pointed out, the ID movement's blatant intellectual dishonesty. Calling someone "evil" hardly seems mature.


nor loving


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