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Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 7:09 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:

Just proves my point the spending needs to be addressed when its finished we will have enough money for universal health care oh I have a great idea lets get rid of half the military ^_^ don't really need it.

Well, yes, spending must be addressed, but the issue is that if we are already inefficient, how are we going to make ourselves massively efficient? You are not the tyrant ruling over society, your view of right and wrong can never dominate as a tyrant's could. Your own vision will be distorted and garbled until it becomes a mockery of all it really stood for, I would rather not have a vision to be implemented by the government in the first place.

philosopherBoi
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17 Aug 2008, 7:11 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

philosopherBoi wrote:

Very good points you guys seem to forget the government is a tool of the people. So what you are saying is people don't care about other people is that it??? Or are you trying to say you just want to do your own thing without consideration to the negative affects you have when its all about you and no one else??

There is no such thing as "the people" only individuals. What I am saying is that other people are other people, they cannot be reduced to a blob as they are heterogenous, and I do not want to make a choice for them. You seem to pretend that I am only choosing for myself if I want a governmental action, but you know I am not and declare that explicitly when saying that the government has power over "the people". I have already attacked democracy for not being representative of the people, must I do that again? It is absurd that a majority of people tell the minority what they must do, and certainly more so that a minority tell the majority what they must do.

Its our own fault we just kinda complain a little that's it people won't do anything like protest, or write letters to their senators. For some reason people think they have no voice which is far from true, look at what Martin Luther King Jr. did he rallied the people in such a way that the government had no choice but to listen.

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 7:11 pm

corroonb wrote:

My anarchy is rational. If all people were rational agents, then complete anarchy would be workable. However most people are entirely irrational. They would rather kill or rape than ask or bargain. This is our species unfortunately. I see the government as a tool of the people and in most countries this is so. In France the government fears the people, in the US the people fear the government.

How do they become less rational in anarchy than under government? People rather kill or rape whether the government exists or not, but why would anyone let a killer or rapist do their works?

sinsboldly
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17 Aug 2008, 7:12 pm

corroonb wrote:

The US alone out of all the developed nations does not have a national healthcare service.

of course we do. Center for Medicare/Medicare Services is national healthcare. All we would have to do is eliminate the age requirement and poof. . .everybody in the pool!

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corroonb
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17 Aug 2008, 7:12 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

philosopherBoi wrote:

The point he makes about the military is a good one. Why have a national defence system if you don't have a national health-care system? If you don't support one, why support the other?

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 7:12 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:

Martin Luther King Jr. added to the legal system, he did not reform it. Adding laws at low political cost is easy. Reforming a system is hard. They are not the same.

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 7:15 pm

corroonb wrote:

The point he makes about the military is a good one. Why have a national defence system if you don't have a national health-care system? If you don't support one, why support the other?

HA HA HA HA HA!! !! !! !

The military is noted for it's non-excludability(if a region is protected then all within that region are protected), and it's non-rivalrousness(how can you have rivals for a protection over a region). Because of that, it is usually considered a public good by most economists. Health care is excludable as if your neighbor gets treatment you can still avoid it, and it is rivalrous as you can have different doctors, or different methods of healthcare in a region. The criticism is pretty... well, wrong on most levels.

corroonb
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17 Aug 2008, 7:15 pm

sinsboldly wrote:

corroonb wrote:

The US alone out of all the developed nations does not have a national healthcare service.

of course we do. Center for Medicare/Medicare Services is national healthcare. All we would have to do is eliminate the age requirement and poof. . .everybody in the pool!

This is true. I should have said national, universal healthcare service. My mistake.

I think the government is only good for providing services that we need such as education, policing, defence (army,navy etc.), health-care etc. Private businesses cannot be relied on to provide essential services. If this were not so, then there would be no need for governments at all.

philosopherBoi
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17 Aug 2008, 7:17 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

philosopherBoi wrote:

So you seek no government??? Only the strong with a sense of right and wrong have the right to rule over the masses, people have to vote, and protest so that power does not corrupt. The voice of the masses must be the voice of the senate that is not happening right now we are silent, we all want the right thing to be done. We all want to be treated as humans, we all seek equality, we all seek acknowledgement, we all seek protection from disease and death, these things are universal.

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 7:17 pm

corroonb wrote:

Well, the issue is that some of these services do not really qualify so much for government provision, the major issue is whether or not they can be considered public goods/whether or not they have massive positive externalities. If they fail at that, then there is no need for governmental provision.

corroonb
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17 Aug 2008, 7:18 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

corroonb wrote:

The point he makes about the military is a good one. Why have a national defence system if you don't have a national health-care system? If you don't support one, why support the other?

So universal healthcare only benefits the ill so it's not a public good whereas the military benefits everyone so it is. I don't see the logic here. It seems ideology is informing policy here.

Why isn't the military privatised already if the government is so incompetent?

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 7:19 pm

philosopherBoi wrote:

It's the ideal solution I'd say.

I don't want a ruler. I want a person who allows me to live my life and whom I will allow to live their own.

No we all don't, if we all did, then we would all agree politically, wouldn't we? That does not happen except in naive idealist world.

I don't seek equality, I seek superiority. I don't care about the universals either, the expressions are different. To be honest, I think that to be treated as a human, means to be independent from rulers.

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 7:21 pm

corroonb wrote:

So universal healthcare only benefits the ill so it's not a public good whereas the military benefits everyone so it is. I don't see the logic here. It seems ideology is informing policy here.

Umm... no, you simply don't understand the argument. Health care benefits the recipient of health care, the military benefits all who live in a geographic region. Therefore, health care is not a public good in the economic sense of the term, while the military is. The logic is quite simple, you've just never taken an economics course, or if you have it has been a while. There isn't even ideology involved with my analysis, if you just ask an economist about the terms and if I used them properly then he would agree.

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Why isn't the military privatised already if the government is so incompetent?

It already is being privatized. Haven't you heard of blackwater, or whatever the name is?

corroonb
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17 Aug 2008, 7:23 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

I don't seek equality, I seek superiority.

I think this single line can sum up your disagreement.

I seek equality and I hope some day all humans will be equal in comfort and health.

If this is naive or idealist, so be it. But I would rather be naive than full of hatred for my fellows and the desire to surpass them in various ways.

philosopherBoi
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17 Aug 2008, 7:24 pm

No government= no police
No government= no public schools
no government= no universal money
no government= no laws
no government= no punishment for criminal acts

That is your world a world without a government.

I'm with you corroonb I want equality I am no better than anyone else.

Last edited by philosopherBoi on 17 Aug 2008, 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2008, 7:25 pm

corroonb wrote:

I think this single line can sum up your disagreement.

No, it cannot, and you are a fool if you think it can. You simply want an easy means of escape if you take such a line of thought.

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If this is naive or idealist, so be it. But I would rather be naive than full of hatred for my fellows and the desire to surpass them in various ways.

Ok, you should be free to do so, but I don't want you to include me in your folly, and I want you to be free not to be included in my folly.

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