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Do Internet Atheists Have Anything New To Say?

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Ancalagon
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02 May 2009, 6:05 pm

Haliphron wrote:
You havent come up with a logical proof that God exists yet! THAT is what Im getting at.

I haven't been trying to prove the existence of God. I don't think it can be done.


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Haliphron
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02 May 2009, 6:10 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
You havent come up with a logical proof that God exists yet! THAT is what Im getting at.

I haven't been trying to prove the existence of God. I don't think it can be done.


That being said, is it fair to say that the belief in God is a matter of Faith? By that I mean the belief in something even in the absence of evidence or experience; even logic.



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02 May 2009, 6:14 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Is it fair to say that the belief in God is a matter of Faith? By that I mean the belief in something even in the absence of evidence or experience; even logic.

Exactly, like belief in truth, beauty and justice, ( or any other word, but those are some of the more obviously "abstract" ones ).

.



Ancalagon
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02 May 2009, 6:20 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
I haven't been trying to prove the existence of God. I don't think it can be done.


That being said, is it fair to say that the belief in God is a matter of Faith? By that I mean the belief in something even in the absence of evidence or experience; even logic.

I think that there are reasons to believe in God, I don't think these reasons rise to the level of proof.

Faith doesn't mean believing in something without any reason to believe at all.


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02 May 2009, 6:32 pm

Haliphron wrote:
You havent come up with a logical proof that God exists yet! THAT is what Im getting at.

Logical proofs only exist in mathematics. Is theology mathematics?


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02 May 2009, 6:51 pm

Orwell wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
You havent come up with a logical proof that God exists yet! THAT is what Im getting at.

Logical proofs only exist in mathematics. Is theology mathematics?


Not proofs of existence. however proofs of contradiction can be done in theology. For example: Suppose God is omnipotent. Then He can do anything. If so, he can make a stone so big that he cannot move it. contradiction. So ominipotence is eliminated as a possible attribute of God.

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Ancalagon
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02 May 2009, 9:14 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Not proofs of existence. however proofs of contradiction can be done in theology. For example: Suppose God is omnipotent. Then He can do anything. If so, he can make a stone so big that he cannot move it. contradiction. So ominipotence is eliminated as a possible attribute of God.

If God is omnipotent, then the phrase "a stone so big that he cannot move it" is meaningless.


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Haliphron
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02 May 2009, 9:54 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Not proofs of existence. however proofs of contradiction can be done in theology. For example: Suppose God is omnipotent. Then He can do anything. If so, he can make a stone so big that he cannot move it. contradiction. So ominipotence is eliminated as a possible attribute of God.

If God is omnipotent, then the phrase "a stone so big that he cannot move it" is meaningless.


Can God create an entity that he was unable to control? For instance, could God create a SuperGod that's even more powerful and more intelligent than himself??



makuranososhi
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02 May 2009, 10:16 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Not proofs of existence. however proofs of contradiction can be done in theology. For example: Suppose God is omnipotent. Then He can do anything. If so, he can make a stone so big that he cannot move it. contradiction. So ominipotence is eliminated as a possible attribute of God.

If God is omnipotent, then the phrase "a stone so big that he cannot move it" is meaningless.


But omnipotence contradicts itself in its very nature; how does that resolve, then?


M.


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02 May 2009, 10:32 pm

I think it would take a lot more power to create a rock out of nothing than it would take to lift it. And so if God has the power to create the rock, God certainly has the power to do the easier task of lifting it.


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makuranososhi
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02 May 2009, 11:17 pm

That is not the question... it is whether, if God can do anything, can he create something that he himself cannot do? The very contradiction built into such a system of belief is remarkable. At the very least, it begins to place some boundaries on the concept of a God - not the worst way to start, I suppose.


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03 May 2009, 12:13 am

makuranososhi wrote:
That is not the question... it is whether, if God can do anything, can he create something that he himself cannot do? The very contradiction built into such a system of belief is remarkable. At the very least, it begins to place some boundaries on the concept of a God - not the worst way to start, I suppose.


M.


In other words the very conception of omnipotence and omniscience is totally flawed which fatally poisons such a god.



makuranososhi
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03 May 2009, 12:28 am

Sand wrote:
makuranososhi wrote:
That is not the question... it is whether, if God can do anything, can he create something that he himself cannot do? The very contradiction built into such a system of belief is remarkable. At the very least, it begins to place some boundaries on the concept of a God - not the worst way to start, I suppose.


M.


In other words the very conception of omnipotence and omniscience is totally flawed which fatally poisons such a god.


Which invites another question... what of the fallible gods, the earlier pantheons? I mean, if we're going to wrestle with religion, mythology and science - why not take on some of the more interesting parables, at least in my opinion?


M.


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03 May 2009, 12:49 am

makuranososhi wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Not proofs of existence. however proofs of contradiction can be done in theology. For example: Suppose God is omnipotent. Then He can do anything. If so, he can make a stone so big that he cannot move it. contradiction. So ominipotence is eliminated as a possible attribute of God.

If God is omnipotent, then the phrase "a stone so big that he cannot move it" is meaningless.


But omnipotence contradicts itself in its very nature; how does that resolve, then?

M.

Well, what Ancalagon pointed out was that there is no contradiction. The set of possibilities that contradict omnipotence are also logically incompatible with omnipotence, and therefore not possibilites at all, for by defining omnipotence, we exclude them as possible. In any case, many theologians and theists define omnipotence as being a matter of logical possibility, not a matter of whether some fool wants a square circle.

In any case, I consider this kind of problem, not to be profound, but rather just a sign of the attacker's level of ignorance, as it seems easily taken apart, while other problems can be much harder to defend against rather than this.



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03 May 2009, 1:30 am

makuranososhi wrote:
Sand wrote:
makuranososhi wrote:
That is not the question... it is whether, if God can do anything, can he create something that he himself cannot do? The very contradiction built into such a system of belief is remarkable. At the very least, it begins to place some boundaries on the concept of a God - not the worst way to start, I suppose.


M.


In other words the very conception of omnipotence and omniscience is totally flawed which fatally poisons such a god.


Which invites another question... what of the fallible gods, the earlier pantheons? I mean, if we're going to wrestle with religion, mythology and science - why not take on some of the more interesting parables, at least in my opinion?


M.


Primarily the notion of omnipotence and omniscience are oxymorons and therefore totally deny their possibility. I doubt enough adherents to the ancient gods still exist in quantities outside of medical facilities to make their acceptance worthy of discussion.



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03 May 2009, 1:37 am

Sand wrote:
makuranososhi wrote:
Sand wrote:
makuranososhi wrote:
That is not the question... it is whether, if God can do anything, can he create something that he himself cannot do? The very contradiction built into such a system of belief is remarkable. At the very least, it begins to place some boundaries on the concept of a God - not the worst way to start, I suppose.


M.


In other words the very conception of omnipotence and omniscience is totally flawed which fatally poisons such a god.


Which invites another question... what of the fallible gods, the earlier pantheons? I mean, if we're going to wrestle with religion, mythology and science - why not take on some of the more interesting parables, at least in my opinion?


M.


Primarily the notion of omnipotence and omniscience are oxymorons and therefore totally deny their possibility. I doubt enough adherents to the ancient gods still exist in quantities outside of medical facilities to make their acceptance worthy of discussion.


I dont think he means specific ones, but rather elite beings that operate beyond our level. Probably ignoring creation myths as they suggest omnipotence.


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