abortion terminology

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Orwell
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20 May 2009, 3:37 pm

MattShizzle wrote:

Calling abortion murder is an extremely irrational precept - along the lines of saying stepping on an acorn is equivalent to cutting down an oak tree. A fetus can't think. And talking about a "potential person" is going down a dangerous path - which could make not having sex (or even resisting rape) seen as evil.

Main reason murder is illegal is most people would object to being murdered (or having family members, friends, etc murdered.) A fetus is incapable of fearing it's own destruction and has not made friends yet (nor family - since the mother doesn't want it. ) I really see nothing whatsoever wrong with abortion up until the moment of birth, but I do see forcing a woman to have an unwanted baby as extremely horrible.

There, at least now you are aiming in the right direction.

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Awesomelyglorious
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20 May 2009, 3:37 pm

Orwell wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

Quote:

Find one person on this planet more anti-censorship than me. Go ahead, try.

*waves*

*Waves back*

Seriously, I am anti-censorship to the point that most people would just regard me as a lunatic extremist, even others who are generally strongly in favor of free speech.

Some people regard me as a lunatic extremist.

MattShizzle
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20 May 2009, 3:42 pm

Another thing I have heard as a good question for pro-lifers (especially the extreme sort who object to stem cell research):

Say you are in a fertility clinic and a fire breaks out. Everyone gets out except a 2 year old girl. You have a choice - you only have time to save either her, or a tank containing 20,000 fertilized eggs. Which do you save?

I have seen them refuse to answer/dodge the question but never seen anyone say they would save the tank.

Orwell
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20 May 2009, 3:43 pm

cognito wrote:

and therefore prove his point, by saying people shouldn't have certain rights because your sky god says so,

Cognito, this does not make grammatical sense and what little of it I can decipher doesn't seem like a relevant response. I can't tell what you're trying to say. Could you clarify?

Quote:

then you are forcing your beliefs on others.

As AG said, voting is forcing your beliefs on others. Any exercise of political power can be construed as forcing your beliefs on others, whether those beliefs are secular or religious.

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Just because some book says a a man can't marry who he loves because its a man he loves

Where's it say that? I must have a different edition.

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or says a woman can't decide whether or not she can afford a child is wrong on every level.

The reasoning is not typically based on Scripture, but on a belief that murder is wrong. You are misrepresenting the issue badly.

Quote:

How would you feel if I said you can't get married because my beliefs says that you are evil for following god?

I would either ignore you entirely, or call you some rude names and then ignore you.

Quote:

that is where you are very very wrong. In the past you were legally required to say it and it was on;y changed when someone brought suit against the state.

Well, forcing anyone to profess belief in God is wrong, and obviously illegal. Have I ever claimed to be in favor of doing that?

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McTell
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20 May 2009, 3:45 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Henriksson wrote:

Quote:

Find one person on this planet more anti-censorship than me. Go ahead, try.

*waves*

*Waves back*

Seriously, I am anti-censorship to the point that most people would just regard me as a lunatic extremist, even others who are generally strongly in favor of free speech.

Some people regard me as a lunatic extremist.

Will there be a competition to see who is most extreme?

Orwell
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20 May 2009, 3:45 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Some people regard me as a lunatic extremist.

"Some people?" And I take it that "some people" have met or communicated with you?

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Awesomelyglorious
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20 May 2009, 3:47 pm

MattShizzle wrote:

Having "god" in the pledge and on the money is an imposition - since a public school is paid for with tax dollars and we all use money. Try to tell some town council members around the country the pledge isn't forced when they were recalled for not saying it (due to objecting to the religious message. ) Some Christians even oppose having it on the money - seeing it as blasphemous.

Heck yes! So is making that money the only legal tender! As are the tax dollars in the first place. I mean, why should I be the subject to these terrible ideological impositions? They are just built in the opinions about others about external realities, and stupid opinions at that I think. Either that or their selfish desires, a step lower than any magical sky-man.

Quote:

I think the part about fetuses not thinking is a good argument, and the argument against "potential" is dead-on.

I disagree with your stance on the main reason that murder is illegal. I honestly think that people see murder as immoral, and I think that most political scientists tend to side with the idea that people do vote for what they see as good for the nation/world, rather than their personal interests, so I think that your comment, while perhaps correctly hitting upon what drives human moral reasoning to some extent, misses the nature of this reasoning, given that animal cruelty is also illegal, despite the fact that no voter is an animal, and given that property damage laws could easily be used to recompense them for damage to their own animals.

ed
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20 May 2009, 3:49 pm

Orwell wrote:

cognito wrote:

or says a woman can't decide whether or not she can afford a child is wrong on every level.

The reasoning is not typically based on Scripture, but on a belief that murder is wrong. You are misrepresenting the issue badly.

So yo DO believe that abortion is murder! :lol:

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20 May 2009, 3:49 pm

Orwell wrote:

cognito wrote:

and therefore prove his point, by saying people shouldn't have certain rights because your sky god says so,

Cognito, this does not make grammatical sense and what little of it I can decipher doesn't seem like a relevant response. I can't tell what you're trying to say. Could you clarify?

Quote:

then you are forcing your beliefs on others.

As AG said, voting is forcing your beliefs on others. Any exercise of political power can be construed as forcing your beliefs on others, whether those beliefs are secular or religious.

Quote:

Just because some book says a a man can't marry who he loves because its a man he loves

Where's it say that? I must have a different edition.

Quote:

or says a woman can't decide whether or not she can afford a child is wrong on every level.

The reasoning is not typically based on Scripture, but on a belief that murder is wrong. You are misrepresenting the issue badly.

Quote:

How would you feel if I said you can't get married because my beliefs says that you are evil for following god?

I would either ignore you entirely, or call you some rude names and then ignore you.

Quote:

that is where you are very very wrong. In the past you were legally required to say it and it was on;y changed when someone brought suit against the state.

Well, forcing anyone to profess belief in God is wrong, and obviously illegal. Have I ever claimed to be in favor of doing that?

1. My point was just because your god says something doesn't make it right.
2. Leviticus 18
3. I am just refering to the fact a lot of pro lifers use the bible to back this one up
4. That is my point, you say I can't get married because what I am is wrong, how is that different from my example?
5. Never said you were for it, just pointing it out.

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Awesomelyglorious
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20 May 2009, 3:52 pm

Orwell wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Some people regard me as a lunatic extremist.

"Some people?" And I take it that "some people" have met or communicated with you?

You are right Orwell. I have never met or communicated with another person. Curse me for thinking so much.

Awesomelyglorious
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20 May 2009, 3:53 pm

McTell wrote:

Will there be a competition to see who is most extreme?

Heck, I hope so!

ed
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20 May 2009, 3:56 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

McTell wrote:

Will there be a competition to see who is most extreme?

Heck, I hope so!

...well, let's not hijack my thread for this competition, even though I am also very anti-censorship. :lol:

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Orwell
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20 May 2009, 4:00 pm

cognito wrote:

1. My point was just because your god says something doesn't make it right.

From a Christian perspective, yes it does. Doesn't necessarily mean you have to care, though.

Quote:

2. Leviticus 18

I don't see any mention of marriage there, and Leviticus passages are normally interpreted in the context of the time in which they were written, as well as newer developments in the Gospels.

Quote:

3. I am just refering to the fact a lot of pro lifers use the bible to back this one up

Mostly just as a fall-back, the main reasoning isn't explicitly religious. (The main reasoning is that the fetus is alive and should not be killed)

Quote:

4. That is my point, you say I can't get married because what I am is wrong, how is that different from my example?

Have I ever said that? I believe I actually said precisely the opposite. I don't really give a damn who you marry, that's your own business.

Quote:

5. Never said you were for it, just pointing it out.

Well, if you're going to criticize me for forcing my religious beliefs on others, you have to actually find an example of me doing that, rather than projecting someone else's idiocy onto me.

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Orwell
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20 May 2009, 4:02 pm

ed wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

McTell wrote:

Will there be a competition to see who is most extreme?

Heck, I hope so!

...well, let's not hijack my thread for this competition, even though I am also very anti-censorship. :lol:

I think your thread has already well outlived the period in which it would be expected to stay on topic.

In any case, I am certainly not the most extreme. I am the least extreme possible. In fact, no one is more moderate than I am.

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ed
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20 May 2009, 4:17 pm

Orwell wrote:

no one is more moderate than I am.

...certainly not me! :bounce:

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Orwell
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20 May 2009, 4:20 pm

Nice sigline, by the way. Is it new?

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