A question about Judaism and Israel

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it did but it has nothing to do with the Israeli immigration laws as of now which was the subject of this thread/

BTW
the movement of the Jews to Palestine began many many years before WW2
the people who founded the kibutzim that shaped Israel borders where part of a Zionist movements that was founded in the beginning to the 20 century
when people say the jew colonize Palestine they forget that Israel was a big part of the Jewish culture long before the Islam and Christianity were founded and that there is continuous Jewish presence in Israel for thousands years
it's not exactly like the English immigration to America or the Muslim migration to Palestine
Jews lived here long before any of the folks living in Europe even had a name and identity
this land is part if the Jewish culture and prayers and sentiments long before the Arabs knew they are Arabs
yet somehow too many ppl feel that our right to be here is still an open question
we have more right to be here than any american or Brits or any other self righteous narcist has the right to be in his own land
and the Jews,unlike America and England and France and Spain and Belgium etc... didn't rob and kill and exploit so many poor nations in order to enrich themselves

respect

And now you plead ignorance of how the Palestinians were routed out of their homes and villages at the establishment of Israel.
I'm terribly sorry. I don't believe you.

again, i never wrote such a thing,it seems that u choose to argue with words i didn't say because u can't do it with the words i do say.
anyway
i suggest u go and learn some facts about why and how the Palestinians were routed out of their homes and villages

BTW
in the area were i live the majority is Palestinians
their villages intact
they have the same citizen status and rights that i have
my banker is a Palestinian,so is my doctor and and my pharmacist
wrongs were made,
no doubt about it
but the pal's must take some of the blame because they was the one who didn't accept UN approved compromise
if u reject peaceful solution and choose war u must take at least some of the blame
don't u think ?

at 48 this country had enough space to accommodate both people and had the pal's choose to accept peaceful solution then they could have had a very nice country along side Israel
hopefully as developed and as productive as Israel
we could have been excellent partners
they choose war then and they repeating the same mistake over and over again

David Ben-Gurion and the Slaughter of Palestinians
"What is necessary is cruel and strong reactions. We need precision in time, place, and casualties....we must strike mericilessly, women and children included. Otherwise, the reaction is inefficient. At the place of action, there is no need to distinguist between guilty and innocent."
January 1, 1948 - Diary

The very same doctrine underlying the firebombing of Japanese cities and the nuking of two Japanese cities. When the war is on, one uses whatever means necessary to defeat the enemy. There is only one Law of War: Win the War.

ruveyn

that's the problem with simplistic views
people refuse to see and feel the whole picture
the situation here was even much worse thenthe usa-japan thing as japan was already defeated
so was germany and the brits had no problem leveling entire cities killing huge number of civilians for nothing

while here a very small number of hews ,
many of them just after the worst trauma ever
were facing 4 invading armies plus local clashes and massacres

ignorance is so comfortable

Although the nature of bombing from the air cannot distinguish targets Ben Gurion specifically designates women and children to be sought out and executed. It fits very well with some of the policies of the old testament but I had hopes Jewish history of humanitarianism might modulate that ancient savagery. It seems not.

Do you know of systematic execution of children and women at 48 ?

Do you know that Ben Gurion and his terrorist group did not carry out his stated intentions?

Indeed. I'm not for simplistic views either. That's why attitudes like this on both side are keeping is conflict alive.

The fact is successive Israeli governments, allowed the seep of settlers before the current intifada, and this is undeniable. For whatever misguided reason that it was allowed, it has been the main reason for tension and has solved nothing. The settlers are illegally resident in Palestine, under international law, but don't respect the land nor pay taxes. These settlements are supported by infrastructure such as roads and water supply, which the Palestinians cannot use. It has completely turned the region into Swiss cheese. Yet at the same time they accuse the Palestinians of not being able to administer their affairs. Obvious Catch-22 for anyone with any sense. You cannot expect emerging state to be able to do miracles in those conditions. It is patently obvious that there are politicians on both sides who hope that their respective extremist get in and do thing to keep the status quo.

So yes I wouldn't be so quick to believe what one person has to say on the subject.

A good friend of my father is a well know South African Jew who is a Journalist. He was involved was involved in the anti-apartheid moment (I was born is South Africa). He now lives in the Israel and is dedicated to try and keep both parties talking.

Let talk practically now. Gaza cannot exist. Not because Israel doesn't want it to. Simply because it doesn’t have the ingredients necessary to become a state as it is totally dependent on surrounding countries. It is not even comparable to East Pakistan/Bangladesh.

I think both Israel and Palestine need access to the Mediterranean, and have at least two other countries borders to be successful. There needs to be radical redrawing of the map and courage to go with it. As both cannot be connected I think four parts two each should meet at a gateway point, which may need to be under international supervision for a while.

Near the fall of apartheid the ANC were divided in two camps. The Mandela camp realised the Africana people has a strong feeling that they would be punished and this was a big part of what was holding progress back. The rest is history. It takes courage not to carry on doing the same thing and look beyond your immediate interest.

do u want me to list events that never happened ?
where should i look ?
in an unexciting documents ?

there is one documented case, Dir Yasin,110 dead according to the pals,and it is considers the worst case according to Palestinian historians,that attacks wasn't executed by Ben gurion forces the Hagana but by their rivals, the terrorist groups Ezel and Lehi
the incident plays big part in pal's history so i guess it was the worst of it kind,it also considered a shame by most Israelite
according to military historians there was no massacre but unlike any other village the population of Dir Yasin didn't evacuated the village prior to the battle and people were
killed when their houses were blown during the battle

one incident,which both sides considered to be the worst of it kind, and many historians had proven it wasn't not a massacre at all and anyway there is no record of cold blood execution of women and children but of people killed during the break in into their houses(doors were iron and not the usual wood so they used larger loads of TNT)
this incident cause the pal's to execute some serious and undenied massacres of Jews
well
i think that by the above we can conclude that there wasn't any systematic killing of women and children at 48
at least not by the Jews

I agree with you on this point and already wrote that the settlement must go
It was clear to me the day after we took this land(67) and i was a young kid then
But i wish the Palestinians will at least try and get their act together anyway

one of the reason behaind israel suuccess is that they didn't wait for everything to be perfect but start building institutions and infrastructure even under impossibel and imperfect conditions

the same goes for Gaza
the pal's didn't accept it because they want all or nothing but that is a childish and unproductive thinking
u have to work with what u got
peace is a process
an ongoing dialog
the blockade on Gaza is the result of the rockets fired into israel and people here tend to forget it
if a positive step like releasing an area to the pal's self rule would be responded with building of a civilian infrastructure and the recognizing of israel right to exist we could build something on that and go to the next step
the same goes for the oslo proccees
it started so well with cooperation on many level but somehow along the way people lost their nerve
it would be much easier,internally , to make the hard move of moving 300000 people back to israel against the background of cooperation on other fields

These sources clearly confirm the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 1948 with its contingent brutality.

http://www.badil.org/al-majdal/2006/Spr ... icle03.htm

http://www.choike.org/nuevo_eng/informes/6286.html

http://www.palestine-studies.org/enakba ... estine.pdf

It's about time you were educated.

The Palestinian exile happened RIGHT before he was born. Most likely he got the most lies about the whole ordeal and the most nationalistic tone in all of his education. I wouldn't hold him too terribly to the fire because he most likely grew up in a culture of such thick propaganda that the real world seems alien to him.

u r right in that i knew personally and closely many people who took part in the 48 war
my father was one of them
i lived close to this people for so many years that i believe that i would know if any massacre or rape or genocide was executed by them
let me remind u that this is israel and unlike the fascist tyrannies around us people here can talk freely about anything they like
even Ilan Pepe who calls for the boycotting of Israel and and identifyhimself as an Anti Zionists enjoy a secured post in the university(the same university he want to boycott)
when u live with people for a long time,get drunk with them,goes through difficulties with them,etc... and they tell u they never witness massacres or systematic war crimes u tend to believe them
the place were i grew was a very leftist Kibbutz were it members believed and took action for the Palestinian rights on a daily basis
this is how i was educated and as i grew up i donated money and efforts to this cause
which is much more than any of you keyboard heroes would ever do
i know the struggle,pains and complexities of this place first hand
i live here
all u know is slogans and catch phrases
so please do not preach reality to me
it make me lough and we r dealing with a serious and painful subject

One fact not yet mentioned; if you do become a citizen, you will be drafted, enrolled, trained, and issued a weapon.

Unless you're one of the few types of Ultra-Orthodox...