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Orwell
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31 Jul 2009, 6:12 pm

Ah, I see. Well, the broadest definition of creationism includes all theists, and strictly speaking is not mutually exclusive with evolution. However, most people (including most self-described creationists) are referring to something much more specific when they say "creationism." Most people take creationism to mean (at the least) that God created all life in its present forms. Thus, creationism denies the idea of universal common descent of all life.

The main attempt I have seen at reconciling creationism and evolution is theistic evolution, but most creationists would reject even this as contrary to a literal reading of Genesis.

EDIT: The "extreme creationists" as you call them claim to interpret all of the Bible as literally true. They just conveniently ignore select passages.


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ruveyn
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31 Jul 2009, 6:38 pm

Orwell wrote:
Michjo wrote:
I don't really understand why it's always portrayed as creationism Vs. evolution, the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. As a general rule, i think it's best to ignore extreme theists and strong-atheists, they're just as deluded as each other.

The two concepts really are mutually exclusive though, as creationists posit a 6000-year old Earth and claim that no new traits or new species emerge. These claims contradict what is known from evolutionary theory. If two ideas contradict each other, at least one of them is wrong (it is possible that both are wrong).


Not all Creationists are biblical literalists or Young Earth Creationists.

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tonka
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31 Jul 2009, 6:48 pm

Irvy wrote:
The truth is, creationist go into the subject of how the universe was made with a single bias - God made it exactly the way it's written in our modern translation of a document that was written in the bronze age. Evolutionist go into the same subject with a single bias - there is no God, and never was.


A significant proportion of scientists believe in God... so I think you're argument is a little weak there. No evolutionist can honestly say what caused the big bang, but we can say what happened right up until that point.

Irvy wrote:
Therefore, neither group will find the truth, and in reality, never can know the truth because the truth of the matter cannot be observed. All we can do is make assumptions that cannot be proven.


Creationists honestly believe this is the truth. That's the whole problem.

Irvy wrote:
If you go into any subject with the decision already made that regardless of the evidence, certain things must or must not be true, you're never going to find the truth, because in reality, you're not looking for the truth, you're merely looking for evidence that supports your theory.


I think you're mixing up the scientific process here. The scientist develops a hypothesis which must be falsifiable, then conducts empirical experiments to determine if the evidence supports the hypothesis or not. If they already had their mind made up, then why do the experiment? They go through these lengthy and rigourous processes not for the fun of it, but because they really want to learn more and these lengthy and arduous processes are the only defensible way they can move forward. Upon drawing any conclusions, these must be reviewed and be repeatable.

This is entirely different to the method of the creationists. The creationist adopts his position without any empirical evidence, a position that is not falsifiable, that is, a position that cannot be disproven by evidence. His position is not subject to review. It is not subject to new evidence. It is absolute.

I agree that the bible may have been a relatively accurate process of how things came to be 1000s of years ago... but there is no need for humans to carry on those beliefs now. It's like people still believing the Earth is flat because it was written in some book 1000s of years ago... or that the Earth is the centre of the universe... and even the Catholic Church has acknowledge Copernicus was right after 100s of years of redicule and persecution. It will only be a matter of time before Darwin is acknowledged as being accurate along with a number of other scientists... will probably be hundreds of years away given the ignorance being spread around.

I got no problems with Christians either, but to seriously hold on to these rediculous beliefs...


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Henriksson
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31 Jul 2009, 6:57 pm

Quote:
I agree that the bible may have been a relatively accurate process of how things came to be 1000s of years ago...

It was viewed as accurate. It's no more accurate back when than now.


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Tollorin
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31 Jul 2009, 7:52 pm

Tonka wrote:
even the Catholic Church has acknowledge Copernicus was right after 100s of years of redicule and persecution. It will only be a matter of time before Darwin is acknowledged as being accurate along with a number of other scientists... will probably be hundreds of years away given the ignorance being spread around.

The catholic church as already recognize the validity of the theory of evolution.

Irvy wrote:
Interestingly, the Sumerian creation story reads very much like a more complete version of the biblical account. It's almost like what we see in Genesis is the simplified version of an older story.

Its not suprising, considering that the Hebrews do had contact with the mesopotamia. The babylon captivity might be the best exemple. It's generaly considered that the flood myth come from mesopotamia.

Irvy wrote:
Considering that the Sumerians recorded a vast amount of astronomical data, including showing all the planets in our solar system as round objects orbitting the sun (not a flat earth with the sun going around it, as our civilisation believed until relatively recently), and showed all the planets in the right order and in scale to each other, and our civilisation only just found Pluto in the 1930s (I think, it was sometime in the first half of the 20th century), they clearly had access to a greater knowledge than we have today.

It must be coming from some pseudo-science crap, I don't give much credit to things like that....

I agree with you one a point though. Even if I'm not a creationist, I do find the video quite irrespectul and condescending.



Henriksson
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31 Jul 2009, 8:18 pm

Creationist ‘Controversy’
Superstition rears it’s ugly face, from it’s hiding place
From all nooks and crannies, every dark spot to hide
These folks value humans so high, yet so very low
They feast upon the ignorant, selling their snake oil
They are indeed parasites and vermin


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MissConstrue
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31 Jul 2009, 8:33 pm

Henriksson wrote:
Creationist ‘Controversy’
Superstition rears it’s ugly face, from it’s hiding place
From all nooks and crannies, every dark spot to hide
These folks value humans so high, yet so very low
They feast upon the ignorant, selling their snake oil
They are indeed parasites and vermin


Wonderful tale.

Is that derived from an old Scandanavian myth of some sort to scare little children from believing in santa or the unicorn? :lol:


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richardbenson
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01 Aug 2009, 4:58 pm

of course i think god is an alien. wich the sumerians talked about, made myths about and everyone else copied. especually the flood story, the creation of man etc. men tend to describe things that they are familar with, to what they are observing, so if you lived thousands of years ago and you saw a ufo you would call it a flying firey chariot. or a wheel whithin a wheel. the reason why "god" doesnt show up now is because almost everyone has a predetermined opinion about who god is and how he behaves, he showed up so much in the past because man wasnt as connected to everyone else, have nuclear weapons, and tons of people just itching to kill in the name of god. so "god" the alien lays low for now but im shure he will come back one day and lay the smack down


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