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Religions were founded by schizophrenics

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Sand
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07 Aug 2009, 1:52 pm

Magnus wrote:
ZEGH8578 wrote:
i think the first spirituality would have coincided w first signs of art, the creation of "what isnt there"

heaven/a second realm

spirit/a second body

a statue/a second manifestation of a person

an amulet/a second manifestation of a concept

art is traced 175 000 years back
homo sapiens is traced 200 000 years back

i wonder
how old alcohol and hallucinogenics are traced back. and i wouldnt be surprised if they coincide as well.


Since most hallucinations and subjugations of normal body functions due to various diseases and poisons merely makes normal perceptual functions wildly distorted and misinterpreted why is this considered a gateway to mysterious knowledge?

I don't know when the first mystical or hallucinogenic state occurred. Interesting question though.



Schizophrenic types often are capable of entering into ecstatic states at will but it is not always manageable. They can be brought about spontaneously but most of the time it is induced during extreme suffering, near death experiences, hallucinogenics, fasting,dancing, drumming, and long hours of meditation. After a spontaneous experience it makes you want to explore it more so doing hallucinogenics gives you that vehicle to get back in that state and return to where you left off so you can learn more and so forth. Just like dreams these visions need to be interpreted



Last edited by Sand on 07 Aug 2009, 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

iamnotaparakeet
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07 Aug 2009, 3:46 pm

Magnus wrote:
Jesus would be considered a schizophrenic if he was analyzed by a modern day psychiatrist. Even if he performed miracles the doctors would say that it was a placebo effect or that it was just coincidental.


The thing about that, is that psychology works about the same was as the Ptolemaic model of the universe: it absorbs exceptions by just increasing the level of additional explanations. It is just a system of explanations. The Ptolemaic model accommodated the strange observed motion of the planets (caused by Earth overtaking the other planets in regard to its angular location around the Sun) by just increasing the number of solid glass spheres which the other planet had to interact with to get the motion right. Psychology is little different, it uses some methods of statistical profiling, but it is not truly predictive like an actual science, such as chemistry or physics is.

Truth is though, you don't need a pseudoscience like psychology to explain Jesus or anyone. The act of making bogus explanations is about as old as time. That it has carried into professions is just an added bonus to those who can handle the writing.

Edit: I see you wrote psychiatry. Makes little difference though, since one treats people with counseling and the other by loading them with drugs via trial-and-error.



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07 Aug 2009, 6:42 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The thing about that, is that psychology works about the same was as the Ptolemaic model of the universe: it absorbs exceptions by just increasing the level of additional explanations. It is just a system of explanations. The Ptolemaic model accommodated the strange observed motion of the planets (caused by Earth overtaking the other planets in regard to its angular location around the Sun) by just increasing the number of solid glass spheres which the other planet had to interact with to get the motion right. Psychology is little different, it uses some methods of statistical profiling, but it is not truly predictive like an actual science, such as chemistry or physics is.

Truth is though, you don't need a pseudoscience like psychology to explain Jesus or anyone. The act of making bogus explanations is about as old as time. That it has carried into professions is just an added bonus to those who can handle the writing.

Edit: I see you wrote psychiatry. Makes little difference though, since one treats people with counseling and the other by loading them with drugs via trial-and-error.

well, I would say that the issue is that Psychology and Psychiatry cannot be examined exactly in the same way as chemistry and physics are, perhaps ethical limitations regarding human experimentation might be one factor into the issue, also cultural an social issues, and there lies a problem.

However, Psychiatry has been shown to be useful into the issue of mental conditions and problems, and it seems to be more empirical based (even though results can be questioned given issues mentioned) than any other explanation such as a mystic or supernatural explanation for a given phenomena, psychology and psychiatry seem to be more of a reasonable option to explain things rather than a mystical alternative within empirical grounds.

Just wanted to add a little observation from this, that there seems to be a problem when it comes to rejecting the validity of Psychiatry and is that one should also put things such as Autism and Asperger's into question, such as wether AS and ADHD are actually valid or not or even rejecting the known concept of Autism, for the sake of consistency, although this is probably irrelevant.


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ZEGH8578
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07 Aug 2009, 7:01 pm

sand: its not "mysterious knowledge" at all, its just vivid imagination. more vivid than ever


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13 Aug 2009, 2:41 pm

Sand wrote:
There is no animal I know outside of humans that enjoys mutilating, torturing and killing other living things for pleasure alone. This is beyond my understanding.


Actually, cats will enjoy playing with a captured mouse--letting it go, and then pouncing on it again--before either eating it, or, if the cat is well fed, just eventually killing it.



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13 Aug 2009, 3:03 pm

pandabear wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is no animal I know outside of humans that enjoys mutilating, torturing and killing other living things for pleasure alone. This is beyond my understanding.


Actually, cats will enjoy playing with a captured mouse--letting it go, and then pouncing on it again--before either eating it, or, if the cat is well fed, just eventually killing it.


There's quite a difference between honing your hunting skills, and sending someone to the rack, all the while reacting with glee to their tortured screams.



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13 Aug 2009, 3:19 pm

I think equating spiritual insight with insanity is absurd.

Chimpanzees in the wild exhibit a rudimentary spirituality, or at least a rudimentary participation in "religious" ritual. During violent equatorial thunderstorms, most of the troop huddles under trees while the alpha males run around like a dervish, screaming and beating the ground with branches, until the storm stops. When the storm stops, so do the displays. These actions are reserved for the thunderstorms; they don't perform the displays in the same way at any other time.

Well, it's clear that they believe that it is their ritual, their appeal to a "higher power", that causes the storm to stop.

I'm not saying that the branch-pounding is on par with the High Mass. But are you going to say that the chimps are schizophrenic?

I think it's undoubtedly true that intense feelings of "oneness with God" come about as a result of altered states of consciousness. That's a long way from schizophrenia, however. Schizophrenia is a horrible condition, and it makes your life a living hell. To equate it with the beautiful spiritual insights of Jesus or Mohammed or Rama Krishna is beyond absurd.



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13 Aug 2009, 3:54 pm

CaroleTucson wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is no animal I know outside of humans that enjoys mutilating, torturing and killing other living things for pleasure alone. This is beyond my understanding.


Actually, cats will enjoy playing with a captured mouse--letting it go, and then pouncing on it again--before either eating it, or, if the cat is well fed, just eventually killing it.


There's quite a difference between honing your hunting skills, and sending someone to the rack, all the while reacting with glee to their tortured screams.


There's also a wide difference between each person when it comes to how they react to the pain of others. Some people are sadistic, some hate to see others hurting, and some a sadistic in certain cases. Not every human is like the Roman emperors or coliseum spectators of the past, many are quite squeamish and can't stand to see other people in pain. Others don't want to see people hurt in general, but may want somebody hurt in specific (such as a murderer or rapist who affected a loved one.) Some people are abused and hate everything and everyone. No two humans are alike, and even animals differ depending on their lives and how they've been treated.



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13 Aug 2009, 4:09 pm

greenblue wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The thing about that, is that psychology works about the same was as the Ptolemaic model of the universe: it absorbs exceptions by just increasing the level of additional explanations. It is just a system of explanations. The Ptolemaic model accommodated the strange observed motion of the planets (caused by Earth overtaking the other planets in regard to its angular location around the Sun) by just increasing the number of solid glass spheres which the other planet had to interact with to get the motion right. Psychology is little different, it uses some methods of statistical profiling, but it is not truly predictive like an actual science, such as chemistry or physics is.

Truth is though, you don't need a pseudoscience like psychology to explain Jesus or anyone. The act of making bogus explanations is about as old as time. That it has carried into professions is just an added bonus to those who can handle the writing.

Edit: I see you wrote psychiatry. Makes little difference though, since one treats people with counseling and the other by loading them with drugs via trial-and-error.

well, I would say that the issue is that Psychology and Psychiatry cannot be examined exactly in the same way as chemistry and physics are, perhaps ethical limitations regarding human experimentation might be one factor into the issue, also cultural an social issues, and there lies a problem.

However, Psychiatry has been shown to be useful into the issue of mental conditions and problems, and it seems to be more empirical based (even though results can be questioned given issues mentioned) than any other explanation such as a mystic or supernatural explanation for a given phenomena, psychology and psychiatry seem to be more of a reasonable option to explain things rather than a mystical alternative within empirical grounds.

Just wanted to add a little observation from this, that there seems to be a problem when it comes to rejecting the validity of Psychiatry and is that one should also put things such as Autism and Asperger's into question, such as wether AS and ADHD are actually valid or not or even rejecting the known concept of Autism, for the sake of consistency, although this is probably irrelevant.



Well, also GreenBlue, there's the issue of diagnosing people of the past. Like we would want to think of people such as Einstein, Newton, Kepler, Boyle, Bacon, Maxwell, Pasteur, Feynman, Von Braun, or [insert name of famous person you like] as having Asperger's so that it makes us feel better for having it too. It's a similar situation with people diagnosing people they don't like with diagnoses which are have pejorative connotations. Like spreading rumors about a coworker or badmouthing a politician you don't like.

It's sort of like the two sides of racism. The classic form of racism, is hating people of a different culture, ethnic background, or skin color without any thought to who they are as an individual person. The other form is loving people of a different culture, ethnic background, or skin color without any thought to who they are as an individual person. It is a judgment without knowledge. In the case of racism, it is either hating or loving someone you don't even know based on how they look or where they are from. In the case of giving diagnoses to people of the past who nobody alive has met, it's a form of wishful thinking and usually says more about the wisher than the person who they wish to have been a certain way.



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13 Aug 2009, 9:06 pm

CaroleTucson wrote:
I think equating spiritual insight with insanity is absurd.

Chimpanzees in the wild exhibit a rudimentary spirituality, or at least a rudimentary participation in "religious" ritual. During violent equatorial thunderstorms, most of the troop huddles under trees while the alpha males run around like a dervish, screaming and beating the ground with branches, until the storm stops. When the storm stops, so do the displays. These actions are reserved for the thunderstorms; they don't perform the displays in the same way at any other time.

Well, it's clear that they believe that it is their ritual, their appeal to a "higher power", that causes the storm to stop.

I'm not saying that the branch-pounding is on par with the High Mass. But are you going to say that the chimps are schizophrenic?

I think it's undoubtedly true that intense feelings of "oneness with God" come about as a result of altered states of consciousness. That's a long way from schizophrenia, however. Schizophrenia is a horrible condition, and it makes your life a living hell. To equate it with the beautiful spiritual insights of Jesus or Mohammed or Rama Krishna is beyond absurd.


Schizophrenia isn't by its nature a horrible condition. It is only through social conditioning that such labels become an "epidemic".

I love that you brought up the chimp rain dance though. Many animals display "delusional" acts of what appears to be pure enjoyment for enjoyments sake. :wink:


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13 Aug 2009, 9:07 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
CaroleTucson wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is no animal I know outside of humans that enjoys mutilating, torturing and killing other living things for pleasure alone. This is beyond my understanding.


Actually, cats will enjoy playing with a captured mouse--letting it go, and then pouncing on it again--before either eating it, or, if the cat is well fed, just eventually killing it.


There's quite a difference between honing your hunting skills, and sending someone to the rack, all the while reacting with glee to their tortured screams.


There's also a wide difference between each person when it comes to how they react to the pain of others. Some people are sadistic, some hate to see others hurting, and some a sadistic in certain cases. Not every human is like the Roman emperors or coliseum spectators of the past, many are quite squeamish and can't stand to see other people in pain. Others don't want to see people hurt in general, but may want somebody hurt in specific (such as a murderer or rapist who affected a loved one.) Some people are abused and hate everything and everyone. No two humans are alike, and even animals differ depending on their lives and how they've been treated.


It is not logical to care about the suffering of others above one's own interests.


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13 Aug 2009, 9:50 pm

Magnus wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
CaroleTucson wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is no animal I know outside of humans that enjoys mutilating, torturing and killing other living things for pleasure alone. This is beyond my understanding.


Actually, cats will enjoy playing with a captured mouse--letting it go, and then pouncing on it again--before either eating it, or, if the cat is well fed, just eventually killing it.


There's quite a difference between honing your hunting skills, and sending someone to the rack, all the while reacting with glee to their tortured screams.


There's also a wide difference between each person when it comes to how they react to the pain of others. Some people are sadistic, some hate to see others hurting, and some a sadistic in certain cases. Not every human is like the Roman emperors or coliseum spectators of the past, many are quite squeamish and can't stand to see other people in pain. Others don't want to see people hurt in general, but may want somebody hurt in specific (such as a murderer or rapist who affected a loved one.) Some people are abused and hate everything and everyone. No two humans are alike, and even animals differ depending on their lives and how they've been treated.


It is not logical to care about the suffering of others above one's own interests.


But it's perfectly logical to care about general interests when one accepts that people do not exist as individual entities and suffering on others is extremely likely to have repercussions on one's self.



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13 Aug 2009, 10:13 pm

Was it really schizophrenia or just temporary schizophrenic moments caused by ingestion of products like psilocybin mushrooms and peyote buttons?

Also on that note:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press_re ... 11_06.html


Psilocybin mushrooms are Johns Hopkins approved. :D :lol:


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Sand
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13 Aug 2009, 10:45 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Was it really schizophrenia or just temporary schizophrenic moments caused by ingestion of products like psilocybin mushrooms and peyote buttons?

Also on that note:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/press_re ... 11_06.html


Psilocybin mushrooms are Johns Hopkins approved. :D :lol:


Although this is pure speculation with no intimate knowledge of brain function it strikes me that many drug induced effects could rise spontaneously in the biochemistry of certain individuals and it might be irrelevant as to how the effects were produced. For ceremonial use it would be practical to be able to induce odd psychologies presumed to have supernatural effects but this would not rule out those individuals permanently afflicted with distorted perceptions.



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13 Aug 2009, 11:47 pm

Magnus wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
CaroleTucson wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is no animal I know outside of humans that enjoys mutilating, torturing and killing other living things for pleasure alone. This is beyond my understanding.


Actually, cats will enjoy playing with a captured mouse--letting it go, and then pouncing on it again--before either eating it, or, if the cat is well fed, just eventually killing it.


There's quite a difference between honing your hunting skills, and sending someone to the rack, all the while reacting with glee to their tortured screams.


There's also a wide difference between each person when it comes to how they react to the pain of others. Some people are sadistic, some hate to see others hurting, and some a sadistic in certain cases. Not every human is like the Roman emperors or coliseum spectators of the past, many are quite squeamish and can't stand to see other people in pain. Others don't want to see people hurt in general, but may want somebody hurt in specific (such as a murderer or rapist who affected a loved one.) Some people are abused and hate everything and everyone. No two humans are alike, and even animals differ depending on their lives and how they've been treated.


It is not logical to care about the suffering of others above one's own interests.


No Vulcans allowed.



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13 Aug 2009, 11:54 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Magnus wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
CaroleTucson wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Sand wrote:
There is no animal I know outside of humans that enjoys mutilating, torturing and killing other living things for pleasure alone. This is beyond my understanding.


Actually, cats will enjoy playing with a captured mouse--letting it go, and then pouncing on it again--before either eating it, or, if the cat is well fed, just eventually killing it.


There's quite a difference between honing your hunting skills, and sending someone to the rack, all the while reacting with glee to their tortured screams.


There's also a wide difference between each person when it comes to how they react to the pain of others. Some people are sadistic, some hate to see others hurting, and some a sadistic in certain cases. Not every human is like the Roman emperors or coliseum spectators of the past, many are quite squeamish and can't stand to see other people in pain. Others don't want to see people hurt in general, but may want somebody hurt in specific (such as a murderer or rapist who affected a loved one.) Some people are abused and hate everything and everyone. No two humans are alike, and even animals differ depending on their lives and how they've been treated.


It is not logical to care about the suffering of others above one's own interests.


No Vulcans allowed.


There are magnitudes of difference between people who can be indifferent to the suffering of others and those, like ruveyn, who openly confessed to delight in schadenfreude and actively participate in sadistic entertainments of torturing animals and helpless humans.