A civil war thread: Atheists vs Agnostics.

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techstepgenr8tion
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25 Sep 2009, 4:42 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:

Agnosticism (at least the branch that believes in a superior being)is atheism or theism in denial. Who agree?

I'd argue that enough may agree with the possibility of both - not for the sake of bootlicking the people around them for approval. Calling agnostics half-baked atheists or theists just sounds like an attempt to manipulate, stigmatize, perhaps that some on both sides of the argument want to 'correct' them - which is utter BS.

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25 Sep 2009, 7:34 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:

agnostics are called "open-minded".

Yes!
I am open-minded, therefore I am not atheist.

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greenblue
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25 Sep 2009, 7:49 pm

LePetitPrince wrote:

Agnosticism (at least the branch that believes in a superior being)is atheism or theism in denial. Who agree?

well, agnosticism is a metaphysical position, wether agnostics are this and are that would be more related to individuals rather than said philosophical position, such as in denial, etc.

Atheists have the concept of atheism = non-theism, and given that agnosticism (part of it) is non-theism, they would consider it atheism, more specifically, weak-atheism or to better say implicit-atheism.

I think a more interesting question to ask is if people agree with this statement:
agnostics are implicit-atheists,
therefore,
agnostics are atheists.

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greenblue
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25 Sep 2009, 8:01 pm

Orwell wrote:

Sand wrote:

Perhaps not sure but perfectly happy acting as if there weren't.

Thus, I count most agnostics as atheists in practice.

well, I see a problem with "atheist in practice = acting like there was no god" because we would have to define what acting like there was no god is and to which god that refers, and also what is atheism exactly, which I would tend to reject the position as valid philosophically, I do understand however, how a Christian may think like that, but that would be because of his own perspective on the matter.

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Last edited by greenblue on 25 Sep 2009, 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Orwell
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25 Sep 2009, 8:17 pm

greenblue wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Sand wrote:

Perhaps not sure but perfectly happy acting as if there weren't.

Thus, I count most agnostics as atheists in practice.

Most people who count themselves as agnostic do not actively believe in God (the rare agnostic-theists aside). Atheism means lacking a belief in God. Agnostics do not believe in God, therefore they are atheists.

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skafather84
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25 Sep 2009, 8:22 pm

Orwell wrote:

greenblue wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Sand wrote:

Perhaps not sure but perfectly happy acting as if there weren't.

Thus, I count most agnostics as atheists in practice.

Just because someone doesn't ascribe to a set dogma doesn't mean they don't believe in a higher power. I know plenty agnostics who believe in a higher power but don't particularly act on it with any kind of dogma or ritual or anything.

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greenblue
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25 Sep 2009, 8:26 pm

Orwell wrote:

well, if atheism covers anything that isn't theist, then agnostics (non-theists) could be said to be "weak" atheists, in that regard, then yes, I see your point. I just wondered about the term "in practice" because of the relation to acting like there is no god, as that could include some who claim to be Christians depending on what "acting like there is no god" means.

Sand wrote:

Perhaps not sure but perfectly happy acting as if there weren't.

well, the question is, how can we identify someone's acting when he assumes there is a god or gods and how we identify someone's acting when he assumes there are no gods? Is the metaphysical position of the existence and nature of gods related to how one acts?

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25 Sep 2009, 9:23 pm

greenblue wrote:

You're correct, "in practice" was sloppy wording on my part. Of course, "in practice" many professed Christians are non-religious. I meant that I regard most agnostics as atheists because I view atheism as being the absence of belief in God (atheist = a-theist = not theist) so anyone who doesn't profess belief in a God is an atheist.

People who claim belief in a vague "higher power" are somewhat more difficult to categorize. In some cases they are Deists, or are struggling with unanswered questions. In many other cases, they're just wishy-washy or want to avoid confrontation with the more pushy religious types.

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25 Sep 2009, 9:34 pm

An undefined higher power can be anything from a sentient super being to a coordinated interaction of natural forces as apparently Einstein defined his concept of God. It's a hugely vague and rather useless concept in general insofar as human interaction with it is concerned.

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26 Sep 2009, 7:50 am

Sand wrote:

It gave to Einstein a conviction that there is an underlying order in the cosmos and he wanted to find out what it was. The way Einstein put it; he wanted to read God's mind.

ruveyn

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26 Sep 2009, 8:00 am

LePetitPrince wrote:

agnostics are called "open-minded".

Yep that's me!!

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26 Sep 2009, 8:39 am

I'm agnostic ,
I usually don't ponder god and when I do I consider the possibility of him doing X or Y to get what I see.

I'm not an atheist.
Well I am by the word meaning in latin.

but not by it's modern etiology.

So in theory I am at the atheist side but not at the material skeptic side nor at the superstitious side.

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26 Sep 2009, 9:11 am

Do you know the one about the agnostic dyslectic insomniac?

He would lie awake wondering if there is a dog.

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26 Sep 2009, 9:34 am

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

It gave to Einstein a conviction that there is an underlying order in the cosmos and he wanted to find out what it was. The way Einstein put it; he wanted to read God's mind.

ruveyn

God doesn't play dice with the universe.

Unless god is the dice itself.

/back to my 5th dimension mumbo-jumbo

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26 Sep 2009, 11:55 am

skafather84 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

It gave to Einstein a conviction that there is an underlying order in the cosmos and he wanted to find out what it was. The way Einstein put it; he wanted to read God's mind.

ruveyn

God doesn't play dice with the universe.

Unless god is the dice itself.

/back to my 5th dimension mumbo-jumbo

God not only plays dice, He also sometimes throws the dice where they cannot be seen.
Stephen Hawking

skafather84
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26 Sep 2009, 12:36 pm

Sand wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

It gave to Einstein a conviction that there is an underlying order in the cosmos and he wanted to find out what it was. The way Einstein put it; he wanted to read God's mind.

ruveyn

God doesn't play dice with the universe.

Unless god is the dice itself.

/back to my 5th dimension mumbo-jumbo

God not only plays dice, He also sometimes throws the dice where they cannot be seen.
Stephen Hawking

As I said...unless god is the dice itself.

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